Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
robert j
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Re: Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Post by robert j »


… Paul … in all the letters, speaking in them concerning these things, among which some things are difficult to understand … (2 Peter 3:15-16)

Despite the polemics and apologetics in the surrounding context in this widely misinterpreted late 2nd century "early-catholic" letter, this part is just as true today as almost 2000 years ago.
davidmartin
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Re: Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Post by davidmartin »

Just had a flash of inspiration

The Jesus of the gospels is very different to Paul in character, but Paul presents himself as being like Jesus, if you want to look at Jesus then look at Paul he is saying. But Paul does not resemble the Jesus of the gospels. Otherwise how can some people like Jesus, but not Paul - not uncommon to see that

Paul warns about the preaching of 'another Jesus' - so the gospels ARE the other Jesus he is warning against!
The gospels were originally all heretical to the early Pauline movement
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mlinssen
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Re: Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Post by mlinssen »

perseusomega9 wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:43 am
rgprice wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:45 am See Tom Dyksra's Mark Canonizer of Paul.
excellent book
I very quickly scanned it. It indeed is excellent, Tom has a very sharp mind

Well, thanks for the lesson Geoff, I now am of the opinion that Mark indeed does use Paul
davidmartin
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Re: Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Post by davidmartin »

Sure Mark was edited to be Paul friendly but it betrays it's origins as an independent tradition and can't have been crafted by a Paul fanatic to make Paul into Jesus. I don't buy that.
Not least because the Jesus is nothing like Paul. One speaks in parables the other talks like an educated Greek. They could of made Jesus talk normally and it would have been much easier
There's hardly anything about Jesus being a sacrifice in Mark, you'd think it would hammer that home all the time but no
"Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth" - he came to preach?
Maybe Jesus didn't know who he was!

It doesn't agree on who saw the risen Jesus first either with what Paul wrote, basically yeah you can find a ton of parallels to Paul in Mark, but also a ton of differences. That points more towards a re-written text made to be acceptable, sort of, to Pauline style Christians but not a polished production from those Christians because it's not a great fit

Paul simply ignored the earthly man behind these stories, which just makes it look like the gospels are pure myth, and other Christians of the type that had the historical traditions made the gospels in opposition to his movement is just as believable i recon
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidmartin wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:22 pm Sure Mark was edited to be Paul friendly but it betrays it's origins as an independent tradition and can't have been crafted by a Paul fanatic to make Paul into Jesus. I don't buy that.
Nor do I. One has to squint rather hard and cover up a lot of text as one reads Mark to view it as anything close to a pure reaction to Paul + scripture. Rather, Mark is a synthesis, part of the growing legend, of which Paul forms one part: an important part, but just one part.
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mlinssen
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Re: Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Post by mlinssen »

0 - baseline

Let's presuppose that there is a movement somewhere, and it's been around for decades.
It is a bit like the "proverbial monkies in the cage" that get sprayed down as soon as they reach for a banana dangling from the ceiling: the monkies all get replaced and in the end there is only "oral memory", no monkey has ever been in contact with the waterhose itself.
(By the way, said "experiment" turns out to never have been an experiment in fact, but I really like the comparison)

So, there are thousands of people, a good customer base for anything, who appreciate a Jesus (and / or CHirst?) for his wisdom - but no one seems to know what exactly he was all about, it was all rather confusing, but he was a swell guy, such is for sure. Threre are people, really old farts, who claim they saw him, but if you check they all describe different persons so none of that is reliable. But the movement rpresents a lot of meat so to say, thousands, many pockets full there, and it's clearly lost its head

1 - First exploit, by Paul

Then Paul comes in, and he tries to comfort the post-70 Judeans with it, pretending it's a new religion, well established, with other groups in other countries, many other countries even. Paul knows he's lying through the back of his teeth but he grabs an opportunity when he sees one, building a pedestal for himself on top of anything, prefrably his dead mother-in-law so to say (typical win-win there).
Anyway. He can't possibly claim that he knew this Jesus, or was it Christ, but he knows his gullible audience so he fantasises that he had a vision from this dead Jesus, Christ, Jesus, Jesus Christ, whatever - they buy it, and he's in. The rest is history: more lies, and he gets questions about this Jesus or Christ seemingly rejecting circumcision and doing all kinds of non-Judaic things, so he has to defend that, come up with an excuse

Paul is fairly successful at the start but soon collapses under the enormous load of non-Judaic things: no praying, no fasting, no giving alms - this Jesus was no Christ of them for sure. They like the suffering though, typical Jewish victim stuff, love it. And dying for their sins, they absolutely love that part - but they want to know more. But Paul is just a pre-sales guy, his only ability is evangelising, he's not great with words. Screaming, lying and boasting, yes - but he's got a short breath

2 - further exploit, by Mark

Then a Mark comes in. He knows his Greek and Romans, and is a fantastic story teller. So fantastic, that he "hides" and disguises himself as some crude Palestinian hillbilly, even though he's never left Rome himself. He knows how to make a story tick, he can recite from memory Homer for hours straight, he is the Shakepeare of the nills. He digs into the texts that surrounded this Jesus character, and he tries to catch its atmosphere, addressing its themes, while painting it all in his extremely well-crafted design of chiasms and parallels and Narrative with a capital N of whihc Homer himself would be jealous. He also steals some content, carefully wrapping his own context in and around it. And he makes sure to use its main characters and assign each of them a role, even though some of them have no role whatsoever in the original content itself, so he keeps it very scarce.
At the end he makes sure this Jesus fella dies so he doesn't go against Paul in that way, but he never mentions Paul, it's best to pretend these are two independent stories

Mark has great success! His creation took some effort and lacks a nice intro and epilogue, but it sells like icecream at the height of summer - wow

But then - there is huge backlash. There are indignified reactions from the original movement; other people who now try to jump the bandwagon and make a buck out of it by "twisting it into their own choirs"; and worst or best, although the movement is largely non-Judaic, the Judeans are very upset that it is so very anti-Judean. They don't mind the Pharisee-bashing, those days are over anyway, but pissing down their food-law-throats, among others - there are limits, you know

3 - Judaic sauce, by Matthew

So Matthew comes along. He takes Marcion's gospel, one of those other people, which is quite similar to Mark and even a lot longer, and he makes up an intro and an epilogue, and for his own audience he writes a Judaic version of it all, undoing most if not all of what that Mark character screwed up on. And after all the doubt about a resurrected Jesus or not, he sets the record straight on that and even provides an excuse for the filthy rumours about said jesus not having been resurrected at all

And he wins a good portion of Judeans with all his efforts, and a good portion of the original movement as well, plus others

4 - John, the Thomas sauce

After LukeMatthew, there is a lot of protest from the original movement becuae they very well know that they have been duped, even though Luke doesn't Judas kiss Jesus, they know very well that it is the author of their text that is meant by it. So John comes in, an solves all problems that were still present: entering the kingdom as children, making the two one, the son and the father, and all that mumbo jumbo. John is the greatest poet of them all, and he really knows perfectly well how to catch the general atmosphere and wording without reusing hardly any original word.
He drops the entire kissing scene, and makes sure that it is Jesus who puts up Judas, who abuses Judas as an innocent puppet

Finally, there is rest. The movement gros and grows, and...

5 - the Institute takes over

All this happened in the 2nd century, we're now in the third I think. There's still resistance but the battle has moved from "the streets" to the scribes.
I'm not really good / experienced at this stage, but it ain't too hard. Kill the opposition, scapegoat them, refute them, bribe them, persecute them, burn their writings: we all know how many hundreds of millions have been murdered by the Church in any form, and it all has paid off. Rome highly successfully changed its military power into a religious one and all of us are still under its rule

Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

I am not sure whether that is a hilarious question, a naive one, a preposterous one or just a ridiculous one.
None of any of this was ever in any way true at the time of its writing, nor was it supposed to be
davidmartin
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Re: Did Paul found the church in Corinth?

Post by davidmartin »

i like to take the texts we have at face value and work at that details level

John doesn't have the parables as found in the synoptics and Thomas
Is it because by the time of John's composition there is a 'Thomas group' with different sentiments to those of the final author?
If it were thought that Thomas was the source of the parables in Mark (Luke may not have been written then) then it might avoid them

John does suggest this:
"Then Thomas (also known as Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, ‘Let us also go, that we may die with him.’"
Thomas fails to understand the resurrection here. It's a weak point because neither do the others at this point.. but still

"Thomas said to him, ‘Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?’"
Boom, the Thomas sayings certainly speak of knowing the way but Thomas is portrayed as not knowing

"Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’"
"Stop doubting" is a message to the Thomas Christians. You are doubting for not believing in the physical resurrection

Yet the author of John had a choice to use the parables as a source but correctly interpret them, and doesn't explicitly (because maybe the Thomas Christians are not entirely wrong). It's the final redactor who probably added the Thomas material. It might be better to view John as not 'anti-Thomas' but trying to suggest the correct interpretation of the parables which i think John is consciously aware of. John is trying not to take sides, it's left to the final redactor to do that. In a similar way in 2 John the appeal is to one who is trying not to take sides and the author wants them to.
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