How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

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rgprice
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How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by rgprice » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:05 am

I count 6 times. Am I right or did I miss something?

Furthermore, I understand that "Sea of Galilee" was a very unusual name for this body of water. Does anyone have sources that identify the typical name for this body of water? Is there any evidence that anyone used the term "Sea of Galilee" before Mark?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:40 am

rgprice wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:05 am
Furthermore, I understand that "Sea of Galilee" was a very unusual name for this body of water. Does anyone have sources that identify the typical name for this body of water? Is there any evidence that anyone used the term "Sea of Galilee" before Mark?
I have looked for evidence for some time that the exact term Sea of Galilee existed before the gospels, but I have not found any.

The LXX/OG calls it a sea (θάλασσα), because that is the most direct translation for the Hebrew term for it (יָם, yam), and obviously it is in Galilee, so the term Sea of Galilee is hardly some wacky linguistic experiment, but it usually goes by its actual name, Kinneret(h), or transliterations of it, and the geographers called it a lake, not a sea. (In the NT, Luke also calls it a lake.) 1 Maccabees 11.67 calls it the water of Gennesar. Pliny (Natural History 5.15.71) calls it a lake and names it Genesara, Strabo (Geography 16.2.16) the Gennesarite lake. Josephus uses a similar transliteration several times. All of these names are obviously based on the Hebrew.

Eventually it was called the Lake of Tiberias almost exclusively (and refer also to John 6.1).

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Secret Alias
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:27 am

Compare the question of 'how many times does Jesus get in a boat' with the older 'how many times does Moses go up and down the mountain?' https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10 ... lCode=tbtd

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Giuseppe
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:37 am

some argued that Jesus need a boat to not be touched by the crowd around him (crowd who othewise would have realized that, by touching Jesus, he was without a body of flesh and blood as the "Son of a Unknown Father" (''Bar-Abbas").

Charles Wilson
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:45 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:40 am
Eventually it was called the Lake of Tiberias almost exclusively (and refer also to John 6.1).
John 6: 1, 2 (RSV):

[1] After this Jesus went to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiber'i-as.
...
[2] And a multitude followed him, because they saw the signs which he did on those who were diseased.

Ben, as usual, is on top of his game. If John is "Correcting" Mark (and the Synoptics) you could hardly ask for a more interesting wording than v.1.

"Six" sounds about right but I would invite you to compare with the number of times the phrase "Cross Over" ("Crossing Over" and relata) is used. John 6:1 is complex - Teeple has everyone getting in on the action with the Source, Redactor and Editor chiming in to get it just right. A sign that they are writing to smooth over (hide) something from a Source that Mark chose to ignore.

Like verse 2. In passing, the important Signs Gospel appearing. "And" links verses 1 and 2 in the text. Were they linked in the Original?

NOTE to RGP: I believe you are close to an important point in the rewriting of this Original Material. i believe "Boat", "Crossing Over" and the like are pointing to something else entirely (Antonia and the Temple). Have a look and see what you find.

Best,

CW

[Edit Note:

Mark 4:35 (RSV):

[35] On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, "Let us go across to the other side."

Mark 5: 21 (RSV):

[21] And when Jesus had crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered about him; and he was beside the sea.

Mark 6: 53 (RSV):

[35] On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, "Let us go across to the other side."

So, 3 times for "Crossing Over"/"Go Across" and all in the early sections of Mark. I contend that this is from an Original that was Cut and Pasted (Corrected by John) and rewritten into the "Early Miracle Stories" of Mark. YMMV.]

hakeem
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by hakeem » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:16 pm

rgprice wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:05 am
I count 6 times. Am I right or did I miss something?

Furthermore, I understand that "Sea of Galilee" was a very unusual name for this body of water. Does anyone have sources that identify the typical name for this body of water? Is there any evidence that anyone used the term "Sea of Galilee" before Mark?
The use of the term "Sea of Galilee" appears to be evidence [among other things] that NT Gospel writers were non Jews and not familiar with the region.

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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by rgprice » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:50 pm

@Charles Wilson
I'll just say this. Paul the Apostle did lots of traveling by boat around the Aegean Sea, going to and from Troas to Greece and various places. Paul's use of a boat makes a lot of sense. Why was Jesus using a boat?

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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:05 pm

rgprice wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:50 pm
@Charles Wilson
I'll just say this. Paul the Apostle did lots of traveling by boat around the Aegean Sea, going to and from Troas to Greece and various places. Paul's use of a boat makes a lot of sense. Why was Jesus using a boat?
  1. Because his inner circle of disciples are fishermen (in my view, a fulfilment of Jeremiah 16.16).
  2. To perform miracles like walking on water (refer to Job 9.1-12) and calming the storm (refer to Psalm 107.23-32) to prove his divine prerogative by standards set in Yahwistic passages in the scriptures.
  3. To provide the "sea" half of the Exodus motif, the "feast" half being fulfilled in the Eucharist and in the feeding miracles.

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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm

hakeem wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:16 pm
The use of the term "Sea of Galilee" appears to be evidence [among other things] that NT Gospel writers were non Jews and not familiar with the region.
It's seems rather evident that non Jews (Strabo, Pliny) always used the term "lake" or "body of water" (1 Maccabees, Josephus, GLuke too) but not "sea". The use of the word "sea" seems to presuppose knowledge of the LXX. The term "Sea of ​​Galilee" is likely a Markan invention to enlarge his Galilee theme.

Charles Wilson
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:06 pm

rgprice wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:50 pm
@Charles Wilson
I'll just say this. Paul the Apostle did lots of traveling by boat around the Aegean Sea, going to and from Troas to Greece and various places. Paul's use of a boat makes a lot of sense. Why was Jesus using a boat?
The "Boat" is a Symbol.

The Temple Complex - Antonia and the Temple - are joined both literally and figuratively. One of them had the appearance of a boat. The Priestly functions are performed in the Temple, the Vestments were kept in Antonia. After a lot of consideration, I came to believe that Antonia was the boat, ruling out the Hasmonean Palace, Herod's Bar and Grill and a few other candidates.

Matthew 23: 13 (RSV):

[13] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Scribes and Pharisees were humans, not Spirit Beings. They do not go into the Realm of Heaven "...nor allow those who would enter to go in...". (Therefore, added with another verse or two, the Realm of Heaven is seen as a Real, Physical Place.) Scribes and Pharisees are not allowed into the Realm of Heaven. Those who WOULD go into the Realm of Heaven are therefore Priestly. They are being prevented from entering the Realm of Heaven though, being of the Priesthood, they should be allowed into the Realm of Heaven.

There is a Passageway between the Temple and Antonia. The Pharisees are in control of this area. See: The Interregnum at the Death of Jannaeus and the Ascension of Salome:

Josephus, Antiquities..., 13, 16, 2:

"So she had indeed the name of the Regent; but the Pharisees had the authority. For it was they who restored such as had been banished, and set such as were prisoners at liberty: and, to say all at once, they differed in nothing from Lords..."

Something is wrong here. This is NOT the story of a savior/god. It is referring to something different entirely.

So, doing a little hand waving to save space, we may see that the Original Story was about a Priest who finds himself trapped between the Temple and Antonia. Leading up to this moment we find that this Priest is preparing "Disciples" for a Coup against Herod and the Romans. They move from the Temple to Antonia and back.

They Cross Over.

This is why Crossing Over is found in early Mark. The Basket of Stories from early Mark (ESPECIALLY the "Man with the Withered Hand") signal Cut and Paste from an Original Document. The Pharisees prevent the Priests from entering the Realm of Heaven and the Scribes cannot write about it.

Mark 3: 1 - 6 (RSV):

[1] Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand.
[2] And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him.
[3] And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come here."
[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
[5] And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out,
[6] The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.

"And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?"
"The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him"

This is as serious as it gets - LIFE AND DEATH - and yet, it has successfully been hidden. This is the Story that was rewritten and Transvalued. The Scribes are freed from their restrictions on telling what happened those 12 years ago. Not by the Priest but by the newly created "Jesus" character. The Story of the Priesthood and one of its members has been hidden. Another example, similar motif: The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years is now free to stand and not worship Herod (Josephus: "For at the same time with this celebration for the work about the temple, fell also the day of the Kings inauguration; which he kept of an old custom as a festival: and it now coincided with the other..." Thus, you worship Herod on the same day you celebrate the Temple and worship God.)

This is not about a savior/god. This is about a Coup against Herod.
***
On to "Saul/Paul":

The Template for Saul/Paul is a man named Mucianus. The "Vision on the Road to Damascus" is where Mucianus meets Titus and the Reconciliation of Mucianus and Vespasian directly leads to the overthrow of Vitellius and the ascension of Vespasian. Having seven Legions behind you pledging Fidelity to you will help you a little bit. See: Tacitus. Annals and esp. Histories, Book 4. Mucianus may have been a eunuch at that time:

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vespasian":

"He [Vespasian] bore the frank language of his friends, the quips of pleaders, and the impudence of the philosophers with the greatest patience. Though Licinius Mucianus, a man of notorious unchastity, presumed upon his services to treat Vespasian with scant respect, he never had the heart to criticize him except privately and then only to the extent of adding to a complaint made to a common friend, the significant words: "I at least am a man."

Whoa, baby.

Anyway, Acts is, I sincerely believe, about the Star-Crossed 12th Legion and the rise of Mucianus. Mucianus WAS a "World Traveler" and would have crossed the Aegean many times. Mucianus wrote (at least) 2 books, Epistolae and Acta. Don't know what those two words mean but they must mean something...

So, there you have it. Early Mark is concerned with the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE where a Coup against the Herodians and Romans went horribly wrong. There was a "Duplicate Passover" 12 years later where the Priest, the Subject of the Original, was apprehended and Crucified, perhaps at Caesarea. The "other story" is the Ascension of the Flavians .

Although some members of this site break out into uncontrolled itching and hives at the mention of this, you can follow that Roman part by reading Caesar's Messiah, by Joe Atwill.

This is what led to the NT.

Best,

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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