What was Jerome talking about??

[Kris]

I do want to thank you for your input on Eusebius and how confusing a lot if the Greek literature was back then. It makes it easier to see how a number of events that actually may not have happened at the same time could get lumped together. Perhaps that is what happened here!?

[DCHindley]

Roger has had Eusebius' Chronicle "translated" into English...

Problem?

No, but wasn't that the one where you got help from the denizens of the internet to provide their crib translations, since you were dealing with lines from tables rather than discourse? My mind is fuzzy on the details, probably from endlessly crossing my eyes while wagging my spindly finger.

DCH

[DCHindley]

I do want to thank you for your input on Eusebius and how confusing a lot if the Greek literature was back then. It makes it easier to see how a number of events that actually may not have happened at the same time could get lumped together. Perhaps that is what happened here!?

It is not really clear to me just who thinks that the events associated with Jesus' death by NT writers and early Christian writers, and those Josephus mentioned in connection with the eve of the destruction of Jerusalem, are connected, except in some very tenuous way. Are their Christian Fundamentalists who make such connections? Probably. Should we get our britches in a twist over it? Probably not. You were exposed to their literature, you should know. If some of the claims being made seem, well, "odd" or strike you with a feeling of dissonance (that uneasy feeling that something just don't add up), just make an effort to work out the problem for yourself. It's like peeling away layer after layer of pomegranate leaves before you get to that sweet heart, or layers of an onion. It may bring tears to your eyes to get there, but the heart of the matter is its own reward.

DCH

[steve43]

People watched the sky a lot back then. There was no artificial lighting and folks though stars and celestial events were windows into heaven.

And when a king died or was dying, people REALLY looked closely at the night sky. Same thing for a royal birth (three wise men, remember?)

Actually, Halley's comet made an appearance around 12 B.C., which some use as a dating mark for Jesus' birth.

Josephus' celestial portents were prior to the revolt- so we are looking at A.D. 64-66 roughly.

Halley's Comet would have made a trip about then- possibly in A.D. 65.

Remember that Halley's comet loses about 10 percent of its brilliance as it arcs in orbit around the sun. 2000 years ago, it would have REALLY been spectacular.

Hagan in "Year of the Passover" goes into this- some in "Fires of Rome."

[Kris]

Ok thanks for your input. I really think Josephus was talking events in the timeframe of 60sad and Eusebius may have accidentally put them in the wrong time frame somehow.

[ficino]

This may not be relevant, but yesterday I was reading that Theophilus of Antioch, who goes into many dates in his To Autolycus, uses two methods of dating: that from the OT and that from the Egyptian priest, Manetho, whose work was used by various Greek historians. Theophilus wrote around 180 CE. The article I was reading picks out how Lactantius in his Divine Institutes (early 300s CE) uses many of Theophilus' dates and gets some of them wrong because of the two dating systems.

(as an aside: In 3.29, Theophilus quotes the notorious Thallus for the story that Bel, king of the Assyrians, and Kronos the Titan fought together with other Titans against Zeus and the Olympian gods. From the existing fragments (i.e. quotations in later authors), it looks as though Thallus reported various myths as though they were accounts of actual events. Theophilus, like Lactantius after him, interprets stories of ancient gods as degenerate tales about great men, who went down in history as gods.)

Could Eusebius have gotten some dates wrong because he was using sources that garbled more than one dating system? Or garbled them himself?

[Kris]

That is very interesting stuff Ficino. It is hard to imagine how archaic things were back then. It sure seems like there could have been opportunity for a few errors and miscalculations.

[Kris]

DC--- yes, I have seen fundamentalists sites try to tie the Pentecost that Josephus talks about with regard to the priests in the evening (and occurring in the 60s ce) to the day of Pentecost cited in Acts that occurs in the morning. They say they are linked-- the Holy Ghost left the temple and then came over to the apostles. Or was that holy ghosts--- since a multitude was supposedly heard leaving the temple. I have read Josephus and Acts side by side and don't see the link. It appears the they just pulled out a sign in Josephus. Ignoring all if the others that didn't meet their needs and tried to tie it to Jesus. Seems to me that if Josephus was talking about ANYTHING related to Jesus, he would have had a lot more to say. He doesn't even mention him in Wars.

[Kris]

Here is a weird quote that I found that kind of relates to christians trying to tie josephus and his "let us remove hence" to jesus' crucifixion:

Also in the Historia passionis Domini we read likewise:

“Also in the Gospel of the Nazarenes we read that at the time of Messiah’s death
the lintel of the Temple, of immense size, had split (Josephus says the same and
adds that overhead awful voices were heard which said: ‘Let us depart from this
abode'."
(Historia passionis Domini; MS: Theolog. Sammelhandschrift 14th-15th Century, foll. 65r)

I don't think that Josephus ever said anything like this-- but cant find any information as to what the Historia passionis Domini is. I think they may be using the Eusebius/Jerome information?

[Roger Pearse]

Roger has had Eusebius' Chronicle "translated" into English...

Problem?

No, but wasn't that the one where you got help from the denizens of the internet to provide their crib translations, since you were dealing with lines from tables rather than discourse? My mind is fuzzy on the details, probably from endlessly crossing my eyes while wagging my spindly finger.

Indeed I did. But I did check the results, and fixed them where necessary. One contributor had no idea, but lots of enthusiasm. But most were fine.

All the best,

Roger