What was Jerome talking about??

[Kris]

I am researching some things that I find confusing. One is a quote that Jerome makes in his Chronicles (and I think these are directly taken by Eusebius).

[2047] [2048 in Ar.] Jesus Christ, in accordance with the prophecies which were spoken about him, went to his passion in the 18th [ or "19th" - Ar.] year of Tiberius, and we have found the following things written about this year in the histories of the gentiles [ or "Greeks" - Ar.] : there was an eclipse of the sun, Bithynia was devastated by an earthquake, and many buildings in the city of Nicaea were destroyed. All this coincides with the events of the passion of our Saviour. Phlegon, in the 13th book of his admirable account of the Olympiads, writes about this as follows: "In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad, there was an eclipse of the sun, greater than any which had occurred previously. At the sixth hour, the day became as dark as night, and the stars were visible in the sky. An earthquake in Bithynia destroyed many buildings in Nicaea." Proof that the passion of our Saviour happened in this year is provided by the gospel of John, who write that our Lord taught for three years after the 15th year of Tiberius. And Josephus, the native historian of the Jews, relates that around this time, on the day of Pentecost, first the priests noticed some movement and noise, and then a voice suddenly burst forth from the innermost sanctuary of the temple, saying "Let us move out of here". Josephus also says that in the same year the governor Pilatus secretly by night set up some statues of Caesar in the temple [ "where it was not right for them to be" - Ar.], and this was the first cause of rebellion and disturbances amongst the Jews.
[only in Ar.] Flaccus Avillius, the governor of Alexandria and Egypt, proposed to Tiberius many plots against the Jews.
202.4 [2048] From this time onwards, it can be seen how many disasters overtook the Jews.

Why would he tie some of these things to the same time? My unsderstanding of Josephus is that he was taking about an event that happened in the 60s-- not the 30's. Was it put here because of the ground shaking? I have seen christans try to tie this incident to the pentecost in acts where the Holy Ghost came to the apostles but that happened in the day and Josephus recounts his occurance in the evening. And the statue incident with Pilate was actually shields and happened in 26/27 ad?

I was reading Arthur Sykes who was always battling the Jesuits and he just said Jerome was just plain wrong. Richard carrier said it would be chicanery to date these events of Josephus to the time of the crucifixion.

What do you all think? I am really leaning to the ground shaking business-- since it could tie into phlegons eclipse and earthquake story, which they also mention.

[DCHindley]

Perhaps it would help if you stated what source you are drawing from.

I also assume that you think the extract from Jerome's Latin translation of Eusebius' Greek language Chronicle was derived from Eusebius.

Roger has had Eusebius' Chronicle "translated" into English, which can be accessed at his http://www.tertullian.org site, and there is a link to a translation of the Armenian, but something from his website is probably what you are referring to.

I think I know what the Chronicle says, but where does Josephus speak of an earthquake in Pontus or an eclipse datable to the 60s CE?

for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowing of the earth, that was in an earthquake.

This was late 67 or early 68 CE.

I am not sure how to even compare an earthquake that occurred in Jerusalem to one that occurred in Pontus.

DCH

[Kris]

I am sorry if my post was confusing--- the original post had Jerome's quote. I think it relates to this in Josephus and possibly Tacitus ( who may be getting his info from Josephus??):


Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

And Tacitus:
Various portents had occurred at this time, but so sunk in superstition are the Jews and so opposed to all religious practices that they think it wicked to expiate them by sacrifices or vows. Embattled armies were seen to clash in the sky with flashing arms, and the Temple shone with sudden fire from heaven. The doors of the shrine suddenly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to proclaim that the gods were leaving, and at once there came a mighty movement of their departure. Few took alarm at all this. Most people held the belief that, according to the ancient priestly writings, this was the moment at which the East was fated to prevail: men would now start forth from Judea and conquer the world. This enigmatic prophecy really applied to Vespasian and Titus; but men are blinded by their greed. The common people applied to themselves the promise of grand destiny, and even defeat could not convince them of the truth.

It seemed like all if this happened in the 60s. At least, most people think this. I just wondered why Jerome/Eusebius pulled the incident in the temple out of all these other prodigies and then tried to tie it to Pilates time--- I thought maybe it was because it talks about quaking if the earth. Jerome lumps Phlegon and his earthquake and eclipse in with this other stuff saying they happened around the same time--- just not sure why because it seems like few of them happened in 29-32 ad.

[DCHindley]

I meant the source where you got the quote. What you quote is similar to, but not exactly the same as, what Roger has at his site.

There are also multiple sources for English translations of Tacitus as well, some better than others. The quote you made (from Histories, Book 5 Chapter 13) was translated by William Hamilton Fyfe in 1912. What Tacitus says is closely approximated by the following passage in Josephus, which was written in the mid to late 70s CE, or about 40 years before Tacitus wrote:

312 But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.'' 313 The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular; and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now, this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

Tacitus does not say he follows Josephus as a source, but there are a couple other places where he uses phrases that parallel something in Josephus, only with slightly different detail (Vespasian & Titus versus Vespasian alone, etc).

Those citations from Josephus all seem kind of weird. They are not identical to Whiston's 1737 translation, but can be equally hokey ...

Per Whiston:

289 Thus there was a star {ἄστρον} resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet {κομήτης}, that continued a whole year.

290 Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month of Xanthikos {e} [Nisan], and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone around the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright daytime; which lasted for half an hour.

291 This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

292 At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. 293 Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and extremely heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and fastened with iron-bound bars, and had bolts sunk very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. 294 Now, those who kept watch in the temple, came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up there, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again.

295 This also appeared to the common people to be a very happy prodigy, as if God thereby opened to them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. 296 So these publicly declared that the signal predicted the desolation that was coming upon them.

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisios [Iyyar], 297 a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it, 298 and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen 299 running about among the clouds, and surrounding the cities.

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, 300 and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "We are departing from here.''

I don't know if that last one constitutes an earthquake, at least not one strong enough to cause building damage, so much as vibrations interpreted as being caused by a multitude of the angelic feet running for the exits. Such "tremblers" occur pretty much everywhere and rather more frequently than many realize.

Doesn't even Acts speak of a trembling?

31 And when they [Peter & John, after being released by the high priests after they had been arrested due to the uproar caused by the healing a cripple] had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken

Them apostles were real "movers and shakers."

DCH

[Kris]

Unfortunately,I don't remember where I pulled that Jerome quote from. I had used it in a post a while back and copied it here.

With regard to Josephus and Tacitus, do you place the portents they describe in the 60s?

[DCHindley]

Unfortunately,I don't remember where I pulled that Jerome quote from. I had used it in a post a while back and copied it here.

With regard to Josephus and Tacitus, do you place the portents they describe in the 60s?

They are both describing events believed by many, both Judean and pagan, to have foretold the destruction of Jerusalem, or at least the elevation of Vespasian to control the empire on account of the war he and his son Titus were waging against the Jews and Jerusalem, which all occurred between 66 & 70 CE. To Tacitus, it was ironic that Judeans thought the ancient prophecies that someone from their region would rule the inhabited world referred to other Judeans, when as events turned out, it "obviously" referred to Vespasian and Titus.

Josephus' weird prodigies like aerial battles between angels, temple gates opening of their own accord, voices from heaven, etc, were probably legendary embellishments of natural phenomenon, such as dense flocks of migrating birds, earth movements and tremors with accompanying misaligned gates, doors and structural groaning as buildings and structures accommodate the change in their foundations. Oh yeah, and swamp gas ...

DCH

[andrewcriddle]

Unfortunately,I don't remember where I pulled that Jerome quote from. I had used it in a post a while back and copied it here.

See http://www.attalus.org/translate/jerome2.html

Andrew Criddle

[Roger Pearse]

I am researching some things that I find confusing. One is a quote that Jerome makes in his Chronicles (and I think these are directly taken by Eusebius).

Eusebius composed his Chronicles in two books. Jerome translated book 2 into Latin, and continued it to his own time.

My English translation of the latter is here. Do a Ctrl-F on "Phlegon" for the relevant passage. It's in the 202nd Olympiad, which is 2047 Anno Abrahae (year of Abraham).

[2047] [2048 in Ar.] Jesus Christ, in accordance with the prophecies which were spoken about him, went to his passion in the 18th [ or "19th" - Ar.] year of Tiberius, and we have found the following things written about this year in the histories of the gentiles [ or "Greeks" - Ar.] : there was an eclipse of the sun, Bithynia was devastated by an earthquake, and many buildings in the city of Nicaea were destroyed. All this coincides with the events of the passion of our Saviour. Phlegon, in the 13th book of his admirable account of the Olympiads, writes about this as follows: "In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad, there was an eclipse of the sun, greater than any which had occurred previously. At the sixth hour, the day became as dark as night, and the stars were visible in the sky. An earthquake in Bithynia destroyed many buildings in Nicaea." Proof that the passion of our Saviour happened in this year is provided by the gospel of John, who write that our Lord taught for three years after the 15th year of Tiberius. And Josephus, the native historian of the Jews, relates that around this time, on the day of Pentecost, first the priests noticed some movement and noise, and then a voice suddenly burst forth from the innermost sanctuary of the temple, saying "Let us move out of here". Josephus also says that in the same year the governor Pilatus secretly by night set up some statues of Caesar in the temple [ "where it was not right for them to be" - Ar.], and this was the first cause of rebellion and disturbances amongst the Jews.
[only in Ar.] Flaccus Avillius, the governor of Alexandria and Egypt, proposed to Tiberius many plots against the Jews.
202.4 [2048] From this time onwards, it can be seen how many disasters overtook the Jews.

Why would he tie some of these things to the same time?

Eusebius was the first person to integrate together all the various chronicles circulating. There was no AD or BC; each city had its own months, there was no agreed time at which the year started, and events were often dated to the annual magistrates ("when X and Y were archons"), or to "Year 18 of king ZZZ", or to the list of Olympic victors, which took place every 4 years. He was dependent on his sources, and made some mistakes (e.g. he did not know there were three emperors named Gordian rather than two). But his work is the foundation of all modern knowledge of ancient chronology. As Alden Mosshammer has remarked, by the time of Eusebius, Greek chronography was in a mess.

I don't know the specifics of Josephus; but no doubt he (or someone he used) calculated that these events belong to this time.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[Roger Pearse]

Roger has had Eusebius' Chronicle "translated" into English...

Problem?

[Kris]

I am researching some things that I find confusing. One is a quote that Jerome makes in his Chronicles (and I think these are directly taken by Eusebius).

Eusebius composed his Chronicles in two books. Jerome translated book 2 into Latin, and continued it to his own time.

My English translation of the latter is here. Do a Ctrl-F on "Phlegon" for the relevant passage. It's in the 202nd Olympiad, which is 2047 Anno Abrahae (year of Abraham).

c
[2047] [2048 in Ar.] Jesus Christ, in accordance with the prophecies which were spoken about him, went to his passion in the 18th [ or "19th" - Ar.] year of Tiberius, and we have found the following things written about this year in the histories of the gentiles [ or "Greeks" - Ar.] : there was an eclipse of the sun, Bithynia was devastated by an earthquake, and many buildings in the city of Nicaea were destroyed. All this coincides with the events of the passion of our Saviour. Phlegon, in the 13th book of his admirable account of the Olympiads, writes about this as follows: "In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad, there was an eclipse of the sun, greater than any which had occurred previously. At the sixth hour, the day became as dark as night, and the stars were visible in the sky. An earthquake in Bithynia destroyed many buildings in Nicaea." Proof that the passion of our Saviour happened in this year is provided by the gospel of John, who write that our Lord taught for three years after the 15th year of Tiberius. And Josephus, the native historian of the Jews, relates that around this time, on the day of Pentecost, first the priests noticed some movement and noise, and then a voice suddenly burst forth from the innermost sanctuary of the temple, saying "Let us move out of here". Josephus also says that in the same year the governor Pilatus secretly by night set up some statues of Caesar in the temple [ "where it was not right for them to be" - Ar.], and this was the first cause of rebellion and disturbances amongst the Jews.
[only in Ar.] Flaccus Avillius, the governor of Alexandria and Egypt, proposed to Tiberius many plots against the Jews.
202.4 [2048] From this time onwards, it can be seen how many disasters overtook the Jews.

Why would he tie some of these things to the same time?

Eusebius was the first person to integrate together all the various chronicles circulating. There was no AD or BC; each city had its own months, there was no agreed time at which the year started, and events were often dated to the annual magistrates ("when X and Y were archons"), or to "Year 18 of king ZZZ", or to the list of Olympic victors, which took place every 4 years. He was dependent on his sources, and made some mistakes (e.g. he did not know there were three emperors named Gordian rather than two). But his work is the foundation of all modern knowledge of ancient chronology. As Alden Mosshammer has remarked, by the time of Eusebius, Greek chronography was in a mess.

I don't know the specifics of Josephus; but no doubt he (or someone he used) calculated that these events belong to this time.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

In the last line where you say "no doubt he" --- are you talking about Eusebius?


Josephus seems pretty clear he is talking about events in the 60's.