Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

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robert j
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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by robert j »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:58 am
... In Mark 6:2 the people of Jesus' hometown rise the questions “Where did this man get these things? …. How are such mighty works done by his hands?“ and in Mark 6:14 initial answers to this question have been formed („Some said, ‚John the Baptist has been raised from the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at work in him.”)
OK, but I think the author of Mark provided a more immediate answer to that question, at least with some exposition. I think this provides a good example of how GMark includes a great deal of subtext --- of lessons lurking just below the written lines of text --- that could be used to impart a much wider and deeper level of understanding.

Here is a cut-and-paste from my OP in a different thread ---

Mark clearly laid out the Isaian framework for his story in his opening line ---
Beginning of the announcement of the good news of Jesus Christ, as it has been written in Isaiah the prophet." (Mark 1:1-2a)

I’ve written before that Mark painted a picture worth a thousand words just with this opening line. The following example provides some of those words.

Mark 6:2-6
Isaiah 40:18-22 (LXX)
Interpretation
“… many hearing were astonished, saying, "From where has this man these things, and what is the wisdom having been given to Him, even the miracles such as are done by his hands?” Mark inserts an astonished crowd asking how a man could be so wise and perform such miracles.
“Is this not the tekton (τέκτων), the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" “To whom have you likened the Lord … a tekton (τέκτων) chooses wood that will not rot … wisely … set up his image … that it will not topple …”

“… Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not known the foundations of the earth?”
Mark answers the questions from the crowd:

Jesus is like the tekton from Isaiah, in human form, in the flesh, with a mother and brothers and sisters even.

Jesus crafts images that will never rot and never topple --- crafting the very foundations of the earth.
“And they took offense at Him.”

"... And He was amazed because of their unbelief."
“… Will you not know? Will you not hear? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not known the foundations of the earth?” By pairing his work with the passage in Isaiah --- Mark chided the non-believers --- reinforcing his polemic against those failing to understand the significance of Jesus being like the tekton of Isaiah --- those applying a common connotation rather than a spiritual one.
“It is he who holds the circle of the earth, and those who dwell in it are like grasshoppers, who has set up heaven like a vault and stretched it out like a tent to live in …” The tekton of Isaiah, and of Mark, at work on the foundations of the earth --- and of heaven.

Just prior to the above verses about the tekton in Isaiah 40, are these passages in Isaiah 40 that are chock-a-block with material often mined as Christological references ---
A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; make straight the paths of our God. (Isaiah 40:3, LXX)

Then the glory of the Lord shall appear, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God, because the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5, LXX)

… the word of our God remains forever. Go up on a high mountain, you who bring good news to Sion; lift up your voice with strength, you who bring good tidings to Jerusalem; lift it up; do not fear; say to the cities of Judah, “See, your God!” See, the Lord comes with strength, and his arm with authority; see, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He will tend his flock like a shepherd and gather lambs with his arm and comfort those that are with young. Who has measured the water with his hand and heaven with a span and all the earth by handful? Who has weighed the mountains with a scale and the forests with a balance? Who has known the mind of the Lord … (Isaiah 40:8-13, LXX).

One can see the tekton in Isaiah at work in this last passage --- measuring heaven and earth and weighing the mountains and the forests --- crafting the very foundations of the earth.

Surely Mark's Jesus --- possessed and driven by the spirit of the tekton of Isaiah --- could handle a few miracles.
Last edited by robert j on Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:57 pm A similar relative clause construction in Greek at gMark 14:44 is often translated into English as "the one I kiss" or "the man I kiss." In other words, subsituting a noun phrase for the relative pronoun whom.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/14-44-compare.html

Back to Herod, translating his 6:16 speech to parallel how 14:44 is often translated:

The man I beheaded, John, is risen.

That has the same meaning as

John, whom I beheaded, is risen.

If I were writing an English-language stage adaptation of Mark, then I'd choose the former over the latter. The audience has already just heard that some people think John has come back through Jesus. The new element introduced through Herod's speech is that Herod killed John. More subtle: Herod takes responsibility for what he did, an interesting character point in its own right. It is appropriate for the dramatist to lead with the novel and interesting.

X Whom I beheaded, John, is risen.

is awkward in English. Of the three English versions, it is by far the least attractive.
I agree, Mark 14:44 is a similar construction. But it seems to me that Mark's phrase is a little more complicated than all three presented English versions because „οὗτος“ („this one“) in Mark 6:16 is a resumptive demonstrative pronoun. If you unwind Herod's statement, then you have two main clauses and the name „John“ is the object of the first and „this one“ the subject of the second.

  • I beheaded John. He has been raised.
  • John, whom I beheaded - he has been raised.
  • Whom I beheaded, John - this one has been raised.

It may be more awkward in English than in German or in Greek. But certainly it is in Greek also very cumbersome and weird.
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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gryan wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:18 pm What I notice is a version of resurrection belief supposedly held by a politically oppressive and corrupt leader. In this belief, the resurrection of one opposition leader (John) gives special powers to his followers who then become spiritual leaders, healers and exorcists (Jesus and those he sends out with nothing but the clothes on their back).
I also believe that this is the most important thing. I will come back to that later.
JoeWallack wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:35 pm Here the inside lesson is that Herod, set in opposition to Jesus as much as anyone in GMark as he is the supposed King of the Jews, not only believes in the rising of the dead but believes it because the subject (so to speak) was a righteous man.
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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:18 pm
gryan wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:18 pm What I notice is a version of resurrection belief supposedly held by a politically oppressive and corrupt leader. In this belief, the resurrection of one opposition leader (John) gives special powers to his followers who then become spiritual leaders, healers and exorcists (Jesus and those he sends out with nothing but the clothes on their back).
I also believe that this is the most important thing. I will come back to that later.
JoeWallack wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:35 pm Here the inside lesson is that Herod, set in opposition to Jesus as much as anyone in GMark as he is the supposed King of the Jews, not only believes in the rising of the dead but believes it because the subject (so to speak) was a righteous man.
JW:
Great to have you back here KK. The editing caused by 6:14 and the subsequent he/they (saying) competition is not especially interesting to me as this is a common phenomenon (I know, two words that don't go together like "President" and "Trump") in GMark. What's most important to "Mark" is style and not a historical sounding narrative. The strange/bizarre/macabre language is intentional to get the Reader's attention per Aristotle in Poetics. You've already touched on the stylish comparison of Herod's "confession" with Peter's. I'll lay out the competing choices of 6:14 El-all later. Only for you, I wouldn't do it for anyone else.


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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Charles Wilson wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:25 pm The Mark 6 material concerning Herod and Herodias should probably then be seen as Symbolic. Herod would "Know" that a beheaded person could not be brought back to life and the Lukan language reflects that:
I agree, this is an important point but by no means so clear. There was a discussion in antiquity with different points of view as to whether or not decapitated people could have an afterlife. For example in "Acts of Martyrdom of St. Justin and companions" there is the following discussion

The prefect says to Justin, “Hearken, you who are called learned, and think that you know true doctrines; if you are scourged and beheaded, do you believe you will ascend into heaven?

Justin said, “I hope that, if I endure these things, I shall have His gifts. For I know that, to all who have thus lived, there abides the divine favour until the completion of the whole world.”

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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by Charles Wilson »

1. As always, KK, thank you VERY MUCH for your insight.

2. Q: Would this apply to a Caesar? Say...Galba? There is an undercurrent in the NT of Immortality going to the Rulers. This would trace back probably through the Egyptian Pharaohs but is seen in the NT - "What must I do to obtain Eternal Life?" See also John 3:16. (The "Little People" think that Eternal Life is for them...It's not.)

John 20: 6 - 7 (RSV):

[6] Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying,
[7] and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Galba":

"...then he [Galba] went on as far as the Forum. There the horsemen who had been bidden to slay him, spurring their horses through the streets and dispersing the crowd of civilians, caught sight of him from a distance and halted for a moment. Then they rushed upon him again and butchered him, abandoned by his followers...

"...He [Galba] was killed beside the Lake of Curtius and was left lying just as he was, until a common soldier, returning from a distribution of grain, threw down his load and cut off the head. Then, since there was no hair by which to grasp it, he put it under his robe, but later thrust his thumb into the mouth and so carried it to Otho...

"...From these it was bought by a freedman of Patrobius Neronianus for a hundred pieces of gold and thrown aside in the place where his patron had been executed by Galba's order. At last, however, his steward Argivus consigned it to the tomb with the rest of the body in Galba's private gardens on the Aurelian Road..."

Does Galba get taken over the river to the place, the "Paradise of the Gods"? He WAS Emperor (So was Frugi Piso...). He was beheaded, however. If John is godly and he comes back what of Herod?

Lotsa' tension in what appears to be possibly an added story in Mark 6.
Very nice, KK!!
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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

robert j wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:14 pm OK, but I think the author of Mark provided a more immediate answer to that question, at least with some exposition. I think this provides a good example of how GMark includes a great deal of subtext --- of lessons lurking just below the written lines of text --- that could be used to impart a much wider and deeper level of understanding.

Here is a cut-and-paste from my OP in a different thread ---
...
Surely Mark's Jesus --- possessed and driven by the spirit of the tekton of Isaiah --- could handle a few miracles.
I totally agree with you. But it seems to me that this is not the foremost lesson the reader is supposed to learn. My impression is that the question for the reader is not: „What do you think of the three opinions of the people?“ but rather "What is to be thought of the way Herod deals with the three opinions and of his reasons?“.

14 King Herod heard of it,
……………………………….............for Jesus’ name had become known.

……………………………….............Some said, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead. That is
……………………………….............why these miraculous powers are at work in him.” 15 But others
……………………………….............said, “He is Elijah.” And others said, “He is a prophet, like one of
……………………………….............the prophets of old.”
16 But when Herod heard of it,

...he said,
……………………………….............“John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.”

17 For it was
……………………………….............Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for
……………………………….............the sake of Herodias ...

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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by gryan »

Homeless charismatics?

I'm fascinated by just HOW it had became widely believed that "miraculous powers" were "at work in him." According to the immediately preceding narrative, Jesus had sent out his chosen messengers on road trips with "no bread, no bag, no money in their belts...":

Mark 6:7-12 (Cf. Matthew 10:5–15; Luke 9:1–6)

"Then Jesus called the Twelve to Him and began to send them out two by two, giving them authority over unclean spirits. He instructed them to take nothing but a staff for the journey—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts—and to wear sandals, but not a second tunic.

And He told them, “When you enter a house, stay there until you leave that area. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that place, as a testimony against them.”

So they set out and preached that the people should repent. They also drove out many demons and healed many of the sick, anointing them with oil."

No bread... no money...? Depending on hospitality from strangers? What's going on here?

------------------

To wear sandals (Mk) or not to wear sandals (Lk/Mt)?

Mark 6:9 "and to wear sandals (ὑποδεδεμένους σανδάλια) and not put on two tunics."

Luke 10:4 "Carry no purse or bag or sandals (μὴ ὑποδήματα). Do not greet anyone along the road."

Mt 10:10 "no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals (μηδὲ ὑποδήματα) or a staff"

On wearing sandals, Mark's version contradicts Luke's and Matthew's version of the story.
Last edited by gryan on Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by Ben C. Smith »

gryan wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:04 am Homeless charismatics?

I'm fascinated by just HOW it had became widely believed that "miraculous powers" were "at work in him." According to the immediately preceding narrative, Jesus had sent out his chosen messengers on road trips with "no bread, no bag, no money in their belts...":

Mark 6:7-12 (Cf. Matthew 10:5–15; Luke 9:1–6)

"Then Jesus called the Twelve to Him and began to send them out two by two, giving them authority over unclean spirits. He instructed them to take nothing but a staff for the journey—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts—and to wear sandals, but not a second tunic.

And He told them, “When you enter a house, stay there until you leave that area. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that place, as a testimony against them.”

So they set out and preached that the people should repent. They also drove out many demons and healed many of the sick, anointing them with oil."

No bread... no money...? Depending on hospitality from strangers? What's going on here?
Possibly something Cynical?
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Re: Descents into Hell of Grammar and Sense - Mark's constructed awkwardness

Post by gryan »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:10 am
gryan wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:04 am Homeless charismatics?

No bread... no money...? Depending on hospitality from strangers? What's going on here?
Possibly something Cynical?
Interesting link with a past thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7350&p=114902#p114902

I agree that the homeless charismatics of the Gospels are depicted as being better than the cynics who were notoriously rude and crude. These messengers were supposed to rely on hospitality. Thus, unlike the cynics, they did not need to carry provisions of their own. They were supposed to say "Peace to this house," eat what was set before them, and heal the sick. This is very different than the cynics.
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