The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by mlinssen »

hakeem wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:31 am
mlinssen wrote: [EDIT: My main reason to date Thomas before 70 CE is the destruction of the Temple that he evidently didn't witness. I'm not an expert on Pharisees nor do I wish to become one. If they were in existence even today, that would be fine by me]
Your reasoning is flawed. There are writers who lived c 70 CE but did not mention the destruction of the Temple and others who lived after c 70 CE who also did not mention the event.
Point me to the "reasoning" in the part that you quote please. Or quote any reasoning by me with regards to it - and maybe then you can call it flawed

(Hint: according to me, he evidently didn't witness it because ...?)

And binary arguments like yours here aren't very helpful. It never is either-or, it is always and-and.
There will always be people who do something different than the rest: those are called exceptions.
Exceptions don't redefine rules, they strengthen the rule because they are exactly that: exceptions

Take a million people, a thousand, a hundred, even ten: depending on the matter at hand, someone will always do differently.
Does that invalidate that the vast majority does differently from that?

So

Would Thomas not comment on the 70 CE destruction of the Temple? No, absolutely not, under no circumstances would he not.
You may find a pointer to the reasoning behind that in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4536&start=10#p115718

And then you can make a reasonable comment on that reasoning. Although there are exceptions to that rule as well, of course LOL
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by MrMacSon »

It’s worth noting that many if not most Jewish texts written after the fall of the Second Temple, when referencing the temple, referred to it in the present tense, as if was still standing when it clearly did not; or did not acknowledge it no longer existed ie. just did not mention it’s destruction. There’s a view that Christian writers after 70 CE did the same thing/s.
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mlinssen
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:43 pm It’s worth noting that many if not most Jewish texts written after the fall of the Second Temple, when referencing the temple, referred to it in the present tense, as if was still standing when it clearly did not; or did not acknowledge it no longer existed ie. just did not mention it’s destruction. There’s a view that Christian writers after 70 CE did the same thing/s.
Thomas neither wrote after 70 CE nor was he a Christian writer

It is, errr, odd and awkward how my very specific arguments and pointers are met with generalities and platitudes.
It is like saying "Hi there how are you doing on this bright and shiny day?" and getting in return the response "to do or not to do, that is the question"

That is as useful as a turd on a toad
Bernard Muller
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ken Olson,
You wrote under that thread: A sample of (one of) my issue(s) with the synoptic problem.
There are any number of ways that the relationships among the different versions of the Parable of the Mustard Seed in the synoptic gospels *could* be explained (e.g., Griesbach/Matthew=>Luke=>Mark; Matthean Posteriority/Matthew Conflator/Mark=>Luke=>Matthew). What I'd like to know is what your particular iteration of the Mark-Q/Two-Souce/2DH theory has over Farrer/Mark without Q/Mark=>Matthew=>Luke theory. It seems that the data *could* be explained on the theory that Mark wrote first, Matthew based his version of the parable on Mark's, and then Luke based his version on Matthew's (with perhaps some very minor reminiscence of Mark). What makes your theory better than mine?
If three ways can be argued about the parable of the mustard seed, then none is solid, including yours, including mine (without the overall context), which I admitted.
So I don't see why you would declare:
My other strong cases (not involving fatigue) would be ... the Parable of the Mustard Seed in Luke 13.18-19
In a prior post viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7622&start=30#p118279, I already indicated a strong argument in favor of the existence of "Q". And there are more of those:

Another argument in favor of "Luke" not knowing gMatthew:
Lk 14:26 "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple"
gMatthew has the following corresponding verse (which make a lot of sense):
19:37 "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;"

Don't you think if "Luke" knew about gMatthew, she would have written her (extreme & unrealistic) saying as she did?

Another argument:
The authors of gospels made use of two spellings for Jerusalem, 'Hierosolyma' and 'Ierousalēm'. "Luke" & "Mark" employed both, and "John" used only 'Hierosolyma'. What about "Matthew"? He utilized 'Hierosolyma' eleven times and 'Ierousalēm' twice in 23:37. It just happens Mt23:37 would be part of the common source: the counterpart is Lk13:34 which also features 'Ierousalēm' twice. And all the eleven occurrences of 'Hierosolyma' in GMatthew are in Markan or Matthean material, that is NOT in that common source.

Therefore, with "Matthew" being consistent with 'Hierosolyma', Mt23:37 is very likely to have been copied from a different source, "Q".

Another argument:
Lk11:41a: "But give alms inwardly, and behold, all things are clean to you."
A scholar, Wellhausen, suggested that the Aramaic word dakkau (to cleanse, purify) was misread as zakkau (to give alms)
Then, if Lk11:41 was a mistranslation from the Aramaic, we would have near concordance with:
Mt23:26 "... First cleanse the inside of the cup, that the outside also may be clean"
Let's compare it with the "corrected":
Lk11:41a "But cleanse inwardly, and behold, all things are clean to you."
The "corrected" version would make more sense because, in Lk11:39b, what is inward is "greed and wickedness" and NOT goods for the poor:
Lk11:39-40a "... Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! ..."
Let's compare it to the parallel "Q" passage in GMatthew:
Mt23:25 "... you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence."

It is obvious that "Luke" did not get Lk11:41 from Mt23:26, but from a document ("Q") with a faulty translation.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
hakeem
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by hakeem »

mlinssen wrote:
So

Would Thomas not comment on the 70 CE destruction of the Temple? No, absolutely not, under no circumstances would he not.
You may find a pointer to the reasoning behind that in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4536&start=10#p115718

And then you can make a reasonable comment on that reasoning. Although there are exceptions to that rule as well, of course LOL
Again, your reasoning is flawed. There were writers living after c 70 CE who did not mention the destruction of the Temple. Aristides wrote his Apology in the time of Hadrian and wrote nothing about the destruction of the Temple of c 70 CE.
rgprice
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by rgprice »

Don't you think if "Luke" knew about gMatthew, she would have written her extreme & unrealistic saying as she did?
This argument is entirely useless. This is something that I think Goodacre makes a very good case against. Trying to conjecture about what someone would or wouldn't have done in how they wrote something like this is baseless speculation. There are cases where this cane be helpful, but the Synoptic problem isn't one of them.

For one thing, we don't actually know the motivations of the writer. So much of Q speculation is based on Christian theological assumptions about Luke presumably wanting to write an eloquent Gospel. They are also based on assumptions about Luke being written relatively early.

For one thing, if Luke had Matthew and Mark and the letters of Paul in hand, then Luke may well have understood that Paul preceded Mark, and Mark preceded Matthew. Having this understanding, the writer may have prioritized Paul over Mark and Mark over Matthew.

If you throw Marcion's Gospel into the mix, then the writer of Marion's Gospel may have introduced: "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple"

Luke then followed Marcion's Gospel, while Matthew toned it down.

I think a lot of recent studies are coming to the conclusion that its far more complicated than just A+B=C or A+(BC)+D = G, etc.

There has been circular copying and multiple layers of redaction. Gospels like Luke and Matthew aren't simply constructed from 1 or 2 or 3 sources.

An easier way to see it is how I'm now proposing that Mark and Acts were written. I'm working on the following proposal:

There was a narrative about Paul in which Paul travels to Macedonia, does some stuff, goes to Ephesus, does stuff, then goes to Jerusalem has his trial, then is "saved" by the Gentiles and goes to Rome. That was its own independent story.

The Gospel of Mark is based on that story, but the writer of Mark replaced Paul with Jesus, and has Jesus killed by the Gentiles instead of being saved by them. Mark also used Paul's letters. So the writer of Mark had in hand a collection of Paul's letters (PL), plus a story about Paul (P).

So Mark (M) is based on P + PL. P + PL > M

Now "Luke" comes along and write Acts. Luke has a copy of P. Luke bases Acts 16-28 on P, but Luke also has a copy of Mark. When Luke writes Acts, Luke constructs the Acts 16-28 by using a mix of Paul's letters, P, and M and the writer of Acts didn't realize that M was derived from PL + P.

So in Acts you see overlaps between Acts and M, along with Acts and PL. It's difficult to determine Luke's use of P because P is also reflected in M. So when you see something that overlaps between Acts and M you can't really tell if that is because both M and Acts use P or if its because Acts just uses M. To make matters worse, there are cases where Acts simply follows M.

So, if we just indulge the theory, sometimes the writer of Acts is following P (let's assume that the "we passages" come from P). Sometimes Acts is following PL. And sometimes Acts is following M. But M also used P and PL so distinguishing between the use of M or P or PL is almost impossible because M used both P and PL. Determining when Acts if directly following P and PL or when its following M, and thus indirectly following P and PL is quite tricky. In the case of Acts, however, we do have the advantage of the "we passages" which just might be a good enough indicator to identify Luke's use of P directly, as opposed to Luke's use of PL or M. In the case of my particular theory, I identify the "we passages" with P, and everything that overlaps with Mark or Paul's letters that is written in third-person I identify as having come from Mark or PL.

Then I identify overlaps between Mark and P as Mark's use of P. But this is only possible on the assumption that the "we passages" come from P.

The point here is that multiple scholars are proposing much more complex models where sources are used and reused multiple times and then redacted in multiple layers by later redactors and then harmonized through scribes in such as a way as to make the puzzle almost infinitely complex.

So for example, if we have a model where we start with Mark (M) which uses PL (let's not even consider P at the moment), then proto-Evangelion (pE) is derived from Mark+PL, then Matthew(Mt) is based on Mark + pE, then E is derived from pE + PL, and Luke is derived from M+pE+E+Mt. At that point, where Luke (L) is using both Mt and pE and E all of those works have been derived from M. In addition, M uses Paul's letters, but pE and E also independently use Paul's letters. So when Luke is using E he's also using a derivation of M, while at the same time he also directly uses M.

Then to top it all off, the scribes who were copying Mt and L accidently harmonized a few areas due to the similarities, causing difficult to explain minor agreements.

Hopefully anything that I just said even makes sense :p

Everything I said here could be wrong, but the point remains that, the problem can be vastly more complicated than the 2 source vs single source hypotheses.
perseusomega9
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by perseusomega9 »

rgprice wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:15 am
Don't you think if "Luke" knew about gMatthew, she would have written her extreme & unrealistic saying as she did?
This argument is entirely useless. This is something that I think Goodacre makes a very good case against. Trying to conjecture about what someone would or wouldn't have done in how they wrote something like this is baseless speculation. There are cases where this cane be helpful, but the Synoptic problem isn't one of them.
Agreed, unfortunately NT scholarship is full of this type of "I can't imagine' argument.
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Ken Olson
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by Ken Olson »

perseusomega9 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:29 am
rgprice wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:15 am
Don't you think if "Luke" knew about gMatthew, she would have written her extreme & unrealistic saying as she did?
This argument is entirely useless. This is something that I think Goodacre makes a very good case against. Trying to conjecture about what someone would or wouldn't have done in how they wrote something like this is baseless speculation. There are cases where this cane be helpful, but the Synoptic problem isn't one of them.
Agreed, unfortunately NT scholarship is full of this type of "I can't imagine' argument.
This forum too. We see a lot of arguments from incredulity here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

Best,

Ken
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:16 am
perseusomega9 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:29 am
rgprice wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:15 am
Don't you think if "Luke" knew about gMatthew, she would have written her extreme & unrealistic saying as she did?
This argument is entirely useless. This is something that I think Goodacre makes a very good case against. Trying to conjecture about what someone would or wouldn't have done in how they wrote something like this is baseless speculation. There are cases where this cane be helpful, but the Synoptic problem isn't one of them.
Agreed, unfortunately NT scholarship is full of this type of "I can't imagine' argument.
This forum too. We see a lot of arguments from incredulity here.
Do we? I find that hard to believe....
Secret Alias
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Re: The Synopitc problem + Acts, Paul & Marcion

Post by Secret Alias »

But most people at this forum have never actually read a book cover to cover. The way people of faith grab one or two lines "from scripture" to prove aliens are in control of New York.
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