emphasis mineBernard Muller wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:22 amto rgprice,So you think it is realistic that in order to become Christian, one has to hate every members of his family, including himself and his wife?Says who? Yes I read your arguments. There is zero basis in claiming that Luke wouldn't have written what he/she did if he knew what Matthew said. None at all. How could you possibly assume that. You have no idea what the intentions or methods of Luke were.
According to Aramaic scholar Jack Kilmon:
"Luke" had a bad translation of the saying. She certainly did not get that from gMatthew, but from a document like "Q".
1. You're trying too hard Bernard, the original text said exactly what it says:
Naturally, (the IS of) Thomas looks at it from both sides. Where does the rejection of "his family" come from?
Tom Dykstra (hat tip MrMacSon) already pointed to the "part outside" in Mark, and it is, naturally, the wrong part "of town":
Thomas, the joker, turns the offhand comment about standing outside into something metaphysical and contrasts it with what he considers good: "they-who of these places who make-be of the desire of my father".
If you stand on the outside, you neglect the inside: your own inside. The grapevine, planted outside, will be uprooted for that same reason. The very frustrated "Dinner host" throws a temper tantrum at the end and instructs his "slave" to get anyone he can find, even those on "the part outside", even those who walk "the path(es)" - which is the wrong direction to take, according to the parable of the sower.
And again, paying attention to the outside is rejected in the logion of the Cup
2. Luke copies the saying from Marcion (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765&sid=8bdd3d7391 ... aae753ad88):
|19 Παρεγένετο δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ μήτηρ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ οὐκ ἠδύναντο συντυχεῖν αὐτῷ διὰ τὸν ὄχλον. 20 ἀπηγγέλη δὲ αὐτῷ Ἡ μήτηρ σου καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί σου ἑστήκασιν ἔξω ἰδεῖν θέλοντές σε. 21 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Μήτηρ μου καὶ ἀδελφοί μου οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ ἀκούοντες καὶ ποιοῦντες. [Marcion: τίς μοι μήτηρ καὶ τίνες μοι ἀδελφοί, εἰ μὴ οἱ τοὺς λόγους μου ἀκούοντες καὶ ποιοῦντες αὐτούς;] 22 Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν μιᾷ τῶν ἡμερῶν καὶ αὐτὸς ἐνέβη εἰς πλοῖον καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Διέλθωμεν εἰς τὸ πέραν τῆς λίμνης· καὶ ἀνήχθησαν. 23 πλεόντων δὲ αὐτῶν ἀφύπνωσεν. καὶ κατέβη λαῖλαψ ἀνέμου εἰς τὴν λίμνην, καὶ συνεπληροῦντο καὶ ἐκινδύνευον. 24 προσελθόντες δὲ διήγειραν αὐτὸν λέγοντες Ἐπιστάτα ἐπιστάτα, ἀπολλύμεθα. ὁ δὲ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ τῷ κλύδωνι τοῦ ὕδατος [Marcion: τῇ θαλάσσῃ]· καὶ ἐπαύσαντο, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη. 25 εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς Ποῦ ἡ πίστις ὑμῶν; φοβηθέντες δὲ ἐθαύμασαν, λέγοντες πρὸς ἀλλήλους Τίς ἄρα [Marcion: δὲ] οὗτός ἐστιν, ὅτι [Marcion: ὅς] καὶ τοῖς ἀνέμοις ἐπιτάσσει καὶ τῷ ὕδατι [Marcion: τῇ θαλάσσῃ], καὶ ὑπακούουσιν αὐτῷ;||19 His mother and brothers came to him, and they could not come near him for the crowd. 20 Some people told him, “Your mother and your brothers stand outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God, and do it. [Marcion: Who is my mother and who are my brothers except these who hear my words and do them?]” 22 Now on one of those days, he entered into a boat, himself and his disciples, and he said to them, “Let’s go over to the other side of the lake.” So they launched out. 23 But as they sailed, he fell asleep. A wind storm came down on the lake, and they were taking on dangerous amounts of water. 24 They came to him, and awoke him, saying, “Master, master, we are dying!” He awoke, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water [Marcion: sea], and they ceased, and it was calm. 25 He said to them, “Where is your faith?” Being afraid they marveled, saying to one another, “Who is this then, that he [Marcion: who] commands even the winds and the water [Marcion: sea], and they obey him?”|
3. And then you'll likely want to talk about the hating and persecuting, given your additional "including himself and his wife" above?
Needless to say, the hating and persecuting is metaphysical in Thomas, and logion 68 is one of the many where he juxtaposes plain Coptic words with their Greek loanword equivalent exactly because he wants to demonstrate that they are different, and how they are that.
Luke turns that into: (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765&sid=8bdd3d7391 ... d88#p39310) - and again, a humongous thanks to Ben for his magnificently traceable reconstruction of Maercion - a true masterpiece of more than academic value
|12 Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ταύταις ἐξελθεῖν [Marcion: ἀνέβη] αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ ὄρος προσεύξασθαι, καὶ ἦν διανυκτερεύων ἐν τῇ προσευχῇ τοῦ Θεοῦ. 13 καὶ ὅτε ἐγένετο ἡμέρα, προσεφώνησεν τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐκλεξάμενος ἀπ’ αὐτῶν δώδεκα, οὓς καὶ ἀποστόλους ὠνόμασεν, 14 Σίμωνα, ὃν καὶ ὠνόμασεν Πέτρον, καὶ Ἀνδρέαν τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ, καὶ Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην, καὶ Φίλιππον καὶ Βαρθολομαῖον, 15 καὶ Μαθθαῖον καὶ Θωμᾶν, καὶ Ἰάκωβον Ἀλφαίου καὶ Σίμωνα τὸν καλούμενον Ζηλωτὴν, 16 καὶ Ἰούδαν Ἰακώβου, καὶ Ἰούδαν Ἰσκαριὼθ [or: Ἰσκαριώτην], ὃς ἐγένετο προδότης, 17 καὶ καταβὰς μετ’ αὐτῶν [Marcion: κατέβη ἐν αὐτοῖς] ἔστη ἐπὶ τόπου πεδινοῦ, καὶ ὄχλος πολὺς μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ, καὶ πλῆθος πολὺ τοῦ λαοῦ ἀπὸ πάσης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Ἱερουσαλὴμ καὶ τῆς παραλίου Τύρου καὶ Σιδῶνος καὶ τῆς περαίας, 18 οἳ ἦλθον ἀκοῦσαι αὐτοῦ καὶ ἰαθῆναι ἀπὸ τῶν νόσων αὐτῶν, καὶ οἱ ἐνοχλούμενοι ἀπὸ πνευμάτων ἀκαθάρτων ἐθεραπεύοντο· 19 καὶ πᾶς ὁ ὄχλος ἐζήτουν ἅπτεσθαι αὐτοῦ, ὅτι δύναμις παρ’ αὐτοῦ ἐξήρχετο καὶ ἰᾶτο πάντας. 20 Καὶ αὐτὸς ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ εἰς τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ ἔλεγεν Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοί, ὅτι ὑμετέρα [Marcion: αὐτῶν] ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ. 21 μακάριοι οἱ πεινῶντες νῦν, ὅτι χορτασθήσεσθε [Marcion: χορτασθήσονται]. μακάριοι οἱ κλαίοντες νῦν, ὅτι γελάσετε [Marcion: γελάσουσιν]. 22 μακάριοί ἐστε ὅταν μισήσωσιν ὑμᾶς οἱ ἄνθρωποι, καὶ ὅταν ἀφορίσωσιν ὑμᾶς καὶ ὀνειδίσωσιν καὶ ἐκβάλωσιν τὸ ὄνομα ὑμῶν ὡς πονηρὸν ἕνεκα τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. 23 χάρητε ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ σκιρτήσατε· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ὁ μισθὸς ὑμῶν πολὺς ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ· κατὰ τὰ αὐτὰ γὰρ ἐποίουν τοῖς προφήταις οἱ πατέρες αὐτῶν. 24 Πλὴν οὐαὶ ὑμῖν τοῖς πλουσίοις, ὅτι ἀπέχετε τὴν παράκλησιν ὑμῶν. 25 οὐαὶ ὑμῖν, οἱ ἐμπεπλησμένοι νῦν, ὅτι πεινάσετε. οὐαί, οἱ γελῶντες νῦν, ὅτι πενθήσετε καὶ κλαύσετε. 26 οὐαὶ ὑμῖν ὅταν καλῶς ὑμᾶς εἴπωσιν ~πάντες~ οἱ ἄνθρωποι· κατὰ τὰ αὐτὰ γὰρ ἐποίουν καὶ τοῖς ψευδοπροφήταις οἱ πατέρες αὐτῶν.||12 In these days, he went out [Marcion: ascended] to the mountain to pray, and he continued all night in prayer to God. 13 When it was day, he called his disciples, and from them he chose twelve, whom he also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he also named Peter; Andrew, his brother; James; John; Philip; Bartholomew; 15 Matthew; Thomas; James, the son of Alphaeus; Simon, who was called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James; and Judas Iscariot, who also became a traitor. 17 He came down with [Marcion: among] them, and stood on a level place, with a crowd of his disciples, and a great number of the people from all Judea and Jerusalem, and the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon and beyond, who came to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; 18 as well as those who were troubled by unclean spirits, and they were being healed. 19 All the multitude sought to touch him, for power came out of him and healed them all. 20 He lifted up his eyes to his disciples, and said, “Blessed are you [Marcion: the] who are poor, God’s Kingdom is yours [Marcion: theirs]. 21 Blessed are you [Marcion: they] who hunger now, for you [Marcion: they] will be filled. Blessed are you [Marcion: they] who weep now, for you [Marcion: they] will laugh. 22 Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall exclude and mock you, and throw out your name as evil, for the Son of Man’s sake. 23 Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven, for their fathers did the same thing to the prophets. 24 “But woe to you who are rich! For you have received your consolation. 25 Woe to you, you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when ~all~ men speak well of you, for their fathers did the same thing also to the false prophets.|
Marcion has the more original saying, using the third person which Luke changes to second. The "wife" is in Luke 14:26 (BLB):
Marcion doesn't have that remake, and he certainly doesn't dare to add the mysterious 'stros' sentence, logion 55. But Luke does, without any reservation:
Luke adds the wife, children and brothers and sisters,just as Marcion adds a boatload of relatives to Thomas logion 16
|51 δοκεῖτε ὅτι εἰρήνην παρεγενόμην δοῦναι ἐν τῇ γῇ [Marcion: βαλεῖν ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν]; οὐχί, λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀλλ’ ἢ διαμερισμόν. 52 ἔσονται γὰρ ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν πέντε ἐν ἑνὶ οἴκῳ διαμεμερισμένοι, τρεῖς ἐπὶ δυσὶν καὶ δύο ἐπὶ τρισίν 53 διαμερισθήσονται, πατὴρ ἐπὶ υἱῷ καὶ υἱὸς ἐπὶ πατρί, καὶ μήτηρ ἐπὶ θυγατέρα καὶ θυγάτηρ ἐπὶ τὴν μητέρα [Marcion: μητρί], καὶ πενθερὰ ἐπὶ τὴν νύμφην αὐτῆς καὶ νύμφη ἐπὶ τὴν πενθεράν. 54 Ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τοῖς ὄχλοις Ὅταν ἴδητε νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ δυσμῶν, εὐθέως λέγετε ὅτι Ὄμβρος ἔρχεται, καὶ γίνεται οὕτως· 55 καὶ ὅταν νότον πνέοντα, λέγετε ὅτι Καύσων ἔσται, καὶ γίνεται. 56 ὑποκριταί, τὸ μὲν πρόσωπον τῆς γῆς καὶ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ οἴδατε δοκιμάζειν [Marcion: δοκιμάζετε], τὸν καιρὸν δὲ τοῦτον ~πῶς~ οὐ δοκιμάζετε [Marcion: οἴδατε δοκιμάζειν]; 57 Τί δὲ καὶ ἀφ’ ἑαυτῶν οὐ κρίνετε τὸ δίκαιον; 58 ὡς γὰρ ὑπάγεις μετὰ τοῦ ἀντιδίκου σου ἐπ’ ἄρχοντα, ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ δὸς ἐργασίαν ἀπηλλάχθαι ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ, μή ποτε κατασύρῃ σε πρὸς τὸν κριτήν, καὶ ὁ κριτής σε παραδώσει τῷ πράκτορι, καὶ ὁ πράκτωρ σε βαλεῖ εἰς φυλακήν. 59 λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἐξέλθῃς ἐκεῖθεν ἕως καὶ τὸ ἔσχατον λεπτὸν [Marcion: τὸν ἔσχατον κοδράντην] ἀποδῷς.||51 Do you think that I have come to give peace in [Marcion: to cast peace upon] the earth? I tell you, no, but rather division. 52 For from now on, there will be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son, and son against father; and mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; and mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law, and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” 54 He said to the multitudes also, “When you see a cloud rising from the west, immediately you say, ‘A shower is coming,’ and so it happens. 55 When a south wind blows, you say, ‘There will be a scorching heat,’ and it happens. 56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky, but how is it that you don’t know ~how~ to interpret this time? 57 Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 For when you are going with your adversary before the magistrate, try diligently on the way to be released from him, lest perhaps he drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will by no means get out of there, until you have paid the very last penny [Marcion: quarter].”|
It is all so very evident, obvious, and logical. Yet here we are, in the year 2021, bothering with people calling the kettle black, and indeed using the argument from incredulity
Luke is a lazy copy of Marcion, aimed at supporting Matthew. Looking at the overwhelming amount of verbatim agreement between Marcion and Luke, the fact that the minor disagreements between the two consist in Luke deviating from Marcion's closeness to Thomas points to Marcion being the source to Luke and not vice versa.There is zero basis in claiming that Luke wouldn't have written what he/she did if he knew what Matthew said. None at all. How could you possibly assume that. You have no idea what the intentions or methods of Luke were.
The overwhelming amount of verbatim agreement between Luke and Matthew can only mean that Matthew edited Marcion to the level of Luke, unles the order is Matthew->Luke->Marcion->Thomas, which would be the most hilarious assumption of all, and more than impossible to defend