The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

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MrMacSon
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The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by MrMacSon »

Richard Carrier lays out what I think are some good points about the Pauline epistles in chapter 11 of On the Historicity of Jesus (which he titled, 'The Evidence of the Epistles'). He opens with discussion of the letters between Tacitus and Pliny the Younger after Tacitus wrote asking about the circumstances of Pliny the Elder's death:

.
"Glad to answer Tacitus, the younger Pliny wrote him a letter containing an extensive eyewitness account of all he saw and knew about his father’s death, in around 1,500 words ...

"Pliny’s response peaked Tacitus’s curiosity and questions even more, and he wrote again, asking what the younger Pliny himself did in the days immediately following that tragedy. Pliny again obliged him with an account of that in a following letter. As Pliny says, ‘the letter which you asked me to write on my uncle’s death has made you eager to hear about the terrors and also the hazards I had to face’ afterward. This is the kind of exchange of letters we should expect to have from the earliest Christians ...

"... [One would expect that] The same burning desires exhibited by Tacitus and eagerly satisfied by Pliny would have been multiplied a hundredfold in the two decades of Paul’s mission, given the number of Christians and distant churches there were [supposedly] by then, spanning three continents. For not even one person to have ever exhibited this [same level of] interest in writing, nor for any to have so satisfied it is bizarre ...

"This oddity is all the greater given that there were countless moral and doctrinal disputes arising in these congregations (the very reason Paul wrote such long and detailed letters), which must necessarily have rested on many questions that the actual facts of Jesus’ words, life and death would have addressed, answered or pertained to. Such facts would thus necessarily become points of query, debate and contention. Which in turn would have involved eyewitnesses weighing in, either directly (writing letters themselves), indirectly (by dictating letters through hired scribes, which were abundantly available for just that purpose; there were surely even scribes within Christian congregations willing to volunteer), or by proxy (communicating with educated leaders like Paul, who would then relay what they learned) ...

"... if no Christians were interested in any details of Jesus’ life, then they cannot have transmitted any details of his life, either ... you cannot claim the Christians were simultaneously keen to accurately preserve memories of Jesus and completely uninterested in any memories of Jesus. So the notion that ‘they didn’t care about any of that’ is simply a non-starter ...

" ... so far as we can tell, no letters sent to [Paul] ever asked or tasked him with discussing or mentioning such things. No event in Jesus’ life, no details of Jesus’ life, ever had any relevance to any of the occasional issues he addressed, and no one ever used such events or details in any argument Paul ever had to confront. No one was even curious about such things ...

... It’s also improbable that even casual or incidental mentions of historical facts about Jesus would never arise, not once in twenty thousand words. Like Paul’s happenstance mention of baptizing for the dead (1 Cor. 15.29) or the fear of what angels might do if Christian women don’t cover their hair in church (1 Cor. 11.9-10) or the fact that Christians will one day judge the angels (1 Cor. 6.3). Paul lets slip countless incidental details like these about Christian practice and belief, not because he was required to but simply because that sort of thing can’t really be avoided. You would actually have to try very hard not to ever mention anything in twenty thousand words beyond the bare few facts you need to communicate ...

"... Lüdemann likewise finds modern excuses for this implausible:
  • "The argument that [Paul] could assume his readers’ familiarity with these [facts] because he had already passed them on in his missionary preaching [and therefore never had to mention them] is not convincing"."
Carrier, R. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (pp. 595-6, 602-4). Sheffield Phoenix Press.

hakeem
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by hakeem »

How could the Pauline writers mention anything about the life of their Jesus when they claimed to have only seen him after he was raised from the dead?

The Pauline writers mentioned events about their dead and resurrected Lord only by revelation.

Look at 1 Corinthians 11 where the Pauline writer received information about previous events in the life of his dead Lord Jesus.

1 Cor. 11.23-25
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


The Epistle writer saw someone in the heavens but he could not remember if he had a body or not.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

It was the Galileans who could have written about the life of Jesus in Galilee if he did live--not the Epistle writer.

According to Justin the Galileans wrote about the life of their Jesus in the Memoirs of the Apostles.

The Epistle writers don't know anything about the life of Jesus unless they read the Memoirs.
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by cora »

The cent still has not fallen that Paul is actually preaching a GOD, not a human being. The human pieces are forgeries by Irenaeus. So he has nothing to tell about an "earthly life", because there is no earthly life. Whatever is happening is happening in the universe. Paul is preaching life after death, just like John. His Isu is the son of god, being a god himself. Which god, everybody forgets to ask. God the father, the gnostic god. Of which knowledge has disappeared when Irenaeus started calling Jahweh/the Lord, god the father. Since about 200 this knowledge has gone among catholics. And everybody is just ASSUMING that god the father is Jahweh. The church was taking Paul in as theirs.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:07 pm"This oddity is all the greater given that there were countless moral and doctrinal disputes arising in these congregations (the very reason Paul wrote such long and detailed letters), which must necessarily have rested on many questions that the actual facts of Jesus’ words, life and death would have addressed, answered or pertained to. Such facts would thus necessarily become points of query, debate and contention. Which in turn would have involved eyewitnesses weighing in, either directly (writing letters themselves), indirectly (by dictating letters through hired scribes, which were abundantly available for just that purpose; there were surely even scribes within Christian congregations willing to volunteer), or by proxy (communicating with educated leaders like Paul, who would then relay what they learned) ...

"... if no Christians were interested in any details of Jesus’ life, then they cannot have transmitted any details of his life, either ... you cannot claim the Christians were simultaneously keen to accurately preserve memories of Jesus and completely uninterested in any memories of Jesus. So the notion that ‘they didn’t care about any of that’ is simply a non-starter ...
Whether Jesus was historical or not: if Jesus appeared in visions to early Christians, why are there no records of where Jesus appeared, what he said or what he looked like? Paul's account in Acts of the Apostles is the only one I can recall off-hand.

There does seem to be some kind of communication going on. For example, Paul seems to have received instructions about divorce from Jesus (1 Cor 7:10). Jesus apparently appeared to many others after rising, according to Paul (or according to an interpolator). Paul also hints of continuation of communications from heaven, or assistance from above to perform wonders:

Romans 15:17 Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

1 Cor 12: 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?


Yet places where these things happened, details of communications, etc, are not listed anywhere.

Again, this is not about historicity/mythicism, since the same question exists as long as we are assuming that early Christians like Paul claimed communications from the Risen Jesus or from a post-historicist period.

Any ideas why early Christian writings lack such details? Or are there more details about early visions/communications that I've missed out on?
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by rakovsky »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:39 pm Any ideas why early Christian writings lack such details? Or are there more details about early visions/communications that I've missed out on?
Paul's miracles show up in Acts.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

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MrMacSon wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:07 pm
.
" ... so far as we can tell, no letters sent to [Paul] ever asked or tasked him with discussing or mentioning such things. No event in Jesus’ life, no details of Jesus’ life, ever had any relevance to any of the occasional issues he addressed, and no one ever used such events or details in any argument Paul ever had to confront. No one was even curious about such things ...

Carrier, R. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (pp. 595-6, 602-4). Sheffield Phoenix Press.

I had a similar argument with Earl Doherty, which went along these lines (paraphrasing from memory, so I may be unfair to Doherty):

Doherty: "Why didn't Paul mention details about a historical Jesus? The argument that they were occasional letters makes no sense. People would have wanted to know what Jesus said and did."

GDon: "But Earl, you think that the celestial Jesus communicated with early Christians. Paul doesn't describe what Jesus said and did either. In addition, you are moving Paul from a secondary witness to a primary witness, making his input even more important. Wouldn't people have wanted to know what the celestial Jesus said, where he said it and what he looked like? Why didn't Paul include those things?"

Doherty: "Well, you see, these were occasional letters..."

The argument that "the Gospel Jesus didn't exist" and "why didn't Paul mention Gospel Jesus's sayings and doings?" is self-defeating. Once Dr Carrier has removed the Gospel Jesus from the table -- which he plainly does in his formulation of his Minimalist Historical Jesus theory -- then any argument from "Paul doesn't mention anything about the life of Jesus" becomes dependent on knowing how significant the life of Jesus was to Paul. But reading Paul for Paul shows that the life of Jesus wasn't significant. "Jesus came as a servant", and a few other things related to birth, is about the extent of his interest.

It just seems inconceivable to some -- even to atheists -- to propose that Christianity started with a historical Jesus whose life people weren't interested in, and where the focus on those people were on the significance of Jesus's death and resurrection. I don't know why. But Carrier's Minimalist Historical Jesus theory is at odds with a lot of his analysis, which continually equates it to the Gospel Jesus.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by GakuseiDon »

rakovsky wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:46 pmPaul's miracles show up in Acts.
Yes, Acts of the Apostles have a few things. But outside that, no visions of Jesus are recorded AFAIK. If there was "an age of revelations" where the Risen Jesus is popping up to teach the early church, it didn't make it into the extant texts. I would have thought that there would have been plenty, since they are easy enough to make up, considering 1 Corinthians 15:

5 and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve.
6 After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8 And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.…


And especially if the above is an interpolation, since it indicates that there were early Christians who wanted to show that others also saw the Risen Jesus. It's a mystery to me regardless of whether there was a historical Jesus or a celestial Jesus.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:50 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:07 pm
.
" ... so far as we can tell, no letters sent to [Paul] ever asked or tasked him with discussing or mentioning such things. No event in Jesus’ life, no details of Jesus’ life, ever had any relevance to any of the occasional issues he addressed, and no one ever used such events or details in any argument Paul ever had to confront. No one was even curious about such things ...

Carrier, R. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (pp. 595-6, 602-4). Sheffield Phoenix Press.

I had a similar argument with Earl Doherty, which went along these lines (paraphrasing from memory, so I may be unfair to Doherty):

Doherty: "Why didn't Paul mention details about a historical Jesus? The argument that they were occasional letters makes no sense. People would have wanted to know what Jesus said and did."

GDon: "But Earl, you think that the celestial Jesus communicated with early Christians. " Paul doesn't describe what Jesus said and did, either.1
In addition, you are moving Paul from a secondary witness to a primary witness,2 making his input even more important. Wouldn't people have wanted to know what the celestial Jesus said, where he said it and what he looked like? Why didn't Paul include those things?" ,3

1 (a) Well, that's the first part of both Carrier's and Doherty's common/shared point.

(b) The second part is the point (Carrier's, at least) that there is no indication of further interest or reciprocation from the communities that Paul would have written these letters to: no sign of further engagement as one might expect.


2 Well, Paul would have been a primary source for a historical Jesus if he had written things along the lines of, "Cephas or James [or, both Cephas and James] told me about P, Q, R, and S;" and/or, about "A, B, and C Jesus had said at [places] X, Y and Z."


3 Well, that goes to my answer 1(b): "there is no indication of reciprocation from the communities that Paul was writing these letters to ..."

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:50 pm ... But reading Paul for Paul shows that the life of Jesus wasn't significant ...
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:32 pm2 Well, Paul would have been a primary source if he had written things along the lines of, "Cephas or James [or, both Cephas and James] told me about P, Q, R, and S;" and/or, about "A, B, and C Jesus had said at [places] X, Y and Z."
That is, Paul is a primary source for the celestial Jesus. That's true whether Jesus was historical (thus Paul is a primary source for the Risen Jesus) or purely celestial (Paul is a primary source for Jesus period).
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Evidence of the Pauline Epistles

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:03 am
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:32 pm2 Well, Paul would have been a primary source [for a historical Jesus] if he had written things along the lines of, "Cephas or James [or, both Cephas and James] told me about P, Q, R, and S;" and/or, about "A, B, and C Jesus had said at [places] X, Y and Z."
That is, Paul is a primary source for [his] celestial Jesus. That's true whether Jesus was historical (thus Paul is a primary source [accounts of] the Risen Jesus or [his] purely celestial Jesus.
Good point/s. I've put [his] in there b/c there may have been other claims of celestial Jesuses (or Christs) if groups like, say, the Sethian 'Gnostics' had been/were contemporary with or even preceded Paul.

I wouldn't, however, say Paul would be a primary source for a human Jesus based on (i) what he says about a human Jesus is less than what I would expect, and (ii) he says significantly more about a risen or notionally celestial Jesus.

(and I've edited my own post as per the edits I/ve done in the passage of it you quoted in yours).
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