rgprice wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:28 am
Matthew 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he!
Luke 7:28 I say to you, no one among those born of women is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, having been born of a woman, having been born under the Law,
Wow, thanks for calling this out.
This is really interesting. This appears to be a line that we can defiantly trace to Marcion's Evangelion.
7.28 Epiphanius, Scholion 8; Tertullian, Marc. 4.18.8; Ephrem, Marc. II
(Mitchell) 107–8. Tertullian says variously, “Greater indeed is he than
all that are born of women, but . . . he is less than the least in the
kingdom of God” and “John . . . is greater than men born of women.”
Epiphanius paraphrases, “whom he had ranked as the greatest of
those born of women” and quotes, “The one that is less in the kingdom
is greater than he.” So although the first clause is missing from
Gk ms D, it was clearly present in the Evangelion, despite its high
praise of a prophet representing the Jewish covenant. By saying “than
all born of women” rather than “than all prophets born of women,” all
three of our witnesses suggest that the Evangelion has a widely shared
reading, including by P75 and many other Greek manuscripts, Origen,
and OL. Cf. Thomas 46.
This line would imply that Jesus is not born of a woman of course. No one born of a woman is greater than John, but of course Jesus is greater than John. Thus, Jesus must not be born of a woman.
This appears to be a place where Matthew and proto-Luke copied from Marcion. It seem inconceivable that anyone writing an orthodox Gospel would write this on their own. They made Gospels that intentionally gave Jesus a human mother, and then to say something that contradicts that would make no sense, unless they were just copying from Marcion's Gospel or proto-Marcion and missed the meaning of what they were copying.
But where does this leave Gal 4:4? It is a later orthodox interpolation? It is again one of those distinct statements in the Pauline letters. Nothing like this is found in Romans. But at the same time, Gal 3-Gal4 reads fairly cohesively, it's not like 1 Cor 15:5-11, which is an obvious insertion.
Well, the whole story is as follows. Naturally, it all starts with Thomas, and this is the infamous logion 46, about the wordplay on Zedekiah & sons, aka "Johannes the Immerser", who immersed the prophet Jeremiah in mud:
(Lambdin) (46) Jesus said, "Among those born of women, from Adam until John the Baptist, there is no one so superior to John the Baptist that his eyes should not be lowered (before him). Yet I have said, whichever one of you comes to be a child will be acquainted with the kingdom and will become superior to John."
Naturally, that translation is bogus although it covers most of it, yet it leaves out the peculiar details
said IS : starting-from Adam toward Johannes the Immerser in the(PL) beget of the(PL) woman there-is-not he-who exalted to Johannes the Immerser So-that : Shan't! break viz. his(PL) eye did I say it However : he-who will come-to-be in you(r)(PL) he been-made of little he will know the(F) reign-of(F) king and he will be-high to Johannes
I don't know yet why Thomas explicitly refers to "real people" here, even though your own "I" is the best there is, of course. But this is the whole context, and this is where it all started.
And regardless of my interpretation of Thomas, it all depends how much context came along with the application of it in a canonical context, and that is exactly the issue here:
Ben has overlooked an "interpolation" in his Marcion reconstruction, it would seem: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765#p39310
Luke 7.18-35, the inquiry of John the baptist.
|18 Καὶ ἀπήγγειλαν Ἰωάνει οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ περὶ πάντων τούτων. καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος δύο τινὰς τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ ὁ Ἰωάνης 19 ἔπεμψεν πρὸς τὸν Κύριον λέγων Σὺ εἶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ἢ ἄλλον προσδοκῶμεν; 20 παραγενόμενοι δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸν οἱ ἄνδρες εἶπαν Ἰωάνης ὁ Βαπτιστὴς ἀπέστειλεν ἡμᾶς πρὸς σὲ λέγων Σὺ εἶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ἢ ἄλλον προσδοκῶμεν; 21 ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ὥρᾳ ἐθεράπευσεν πολλοὺς ἀπὸ νόσων καὶ μαστίγων καὶ πνευμάτων πονηρῶν, καὶ τυφλοῖς πολλοῖς ἐχαρίσατο βλέπειν. 22 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες ἀπαγγείλατε Ἰωάνει ἃ εἴδετε καὶ ἠκούσατε· τυφλοὶ ἀναβλέπουσιν, χωλοὶ περιπατοῦσιν, λεπροὶ καθαρίζονται, καὶ κωφοὶ ἀκούουσιν, νεκροὶ ἐγείρονται, πτωχοὶ εὐαγγελίζονται· 23 καὶ μακάριός ἐστιν ὃς ἐὰν [Marcion: οὐ] μὴ σκανδαλισθῇ ἐν ἐμοί. 24 Ἀπελθόντων δὲ τῶν ἀγγέλων Ἰωάνου ἤρξατο λέγειν πρὸς τοὺς ὄχλους περὶ Ἰωάνου Τί ἐξήλθατε εἰς τὴν ἔρημον θεάσασθαι; κάλαμον ὑπὸ ἀνέμου σαλευόμενον; 25 ἀλλὰ τί ἐξήλθατε ἰδεῖν; ἄνθρωπον ἐν μαλακοῖς ἱματίοις ἠμφιεσμένον; ἰδοὺ οἱ ἐν ἱματισμῷ ἐνδόξῳ καὶ τρυφῇ ὑπάρχοντες ἐν τοῖς βασιλείοις εἰσίν. 26 ἀλλὰ τί ἐξήλθατε ἰδεῖν; προφήτην; ναί, λέγω ὑμῖν, καὶ περισσότερον προφήτου. 27 οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου. 28 λέγω ὑμῖν, μείζων ἐν γεννητοῖς γυναικῶν Ἰωάνου οὐδείς ἐστιν· ὁ δὲ μικρότερος ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ Θεοῦ μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν. 29 καὶ πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἀκούσας καὶ οἱ τελῶναι ἐδικαίωσαν τὸν Θεόν, βαπτισθέντες τὸ βάπτισμα Ἰωάνου· 30 οἱ δὲ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ οἱ νομικοὶ τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἠθέτησαν εἰς ἑαυτούς, μὴ βαπτισθέντες ὑπ’ αὐτοῦ. 31 Τίνι οὖν ὁμοιώσω τοὺς ἀνθρώπους τῆς γενεᾶς ταύτης, καὶ τίνι εἰσὶν ὅμοιοι; 32 ὅμοιοί εἰσιν παιδίοις τοῖς ἐν ἀγορᾷ καθημένοις καὶ προσφωνοῦσιν ἀλλήλοις ἃ λέγει Ηὐλήσαμεν ὑμῖν καὶ οὐκ ὠρχήσασθε· ἐθρηνήσαμεν καὶ οὐκ ἐκλαύσατε. 33 ἐλήλυθεν γὰρ Ἰωάνης ὁ Βαπτιστὴς μὴ ἐσθίων ἄρτον μήτε πίνων οἶνον, καὶ λέγετε Δαιμόνιον ἔχει. 34 ἐλήλυθεν ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐσθίων καὶ πίνων, καὶ λέγετε Ἰδοὺ ἄνθρωπος φάγος καὶ οἰνοπότης, φίλος τελωνῶν καὶ ἁμαρτωλῶν. 35 καὶ ἐδικαιώθη ἡ σοφία ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν τέκνων αὐτῆς.
||18 The disciples of John told him about all these things. John, in prison, calling to himself two of his disciples, 19 sent them to Jesus, saying, “Go and ask him, ‘Are you the one who is coming, or should we look for another?’” 20 When the men had come to him, they said, “John the Baptizer has sent us to you, saying, ‘Are you he who comes, or should we look for another?’” 21 In that hour he cured many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits; and to many who were blind he gave sight. 22 Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John the things which you have seen and heard: that the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 23 Blessed is he who finds no occasion for stumbling in me.” 24 When John’s messengers had departed, he began to tell the multitudes about John, “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 25 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are gorgeously dressed, and live delicately, are in kings’ courts. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he of whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ 28 “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.” 29 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they declared God to be just, having been baptized with John’s baptism. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves. 31 “To what then should I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the marketplace, and call to one another, saying, ‘We piped to you, and you didn’t dance. We mourned, and you didn’t weep.’ 33 For John the Baptizer came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man, and a drunkard; a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Wisdom is justified by all her children.”|
isn't in Marcion, it gets added by the WEB interpretation of "Luke", and basically Luke just says what it says "for real":
28 I say to you, no one among those born of women is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” (BLB)
And that, my friends, is a perfectly neutral sentence that could be about anyone or anything.
There is also the issue that John was born before Jesus was, so if you take the entire Thomasine original and interpret it into a Christian context, including the Lukan birth narrative, then it would automatically exclude Jesus