Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

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Giuseppe
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Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:04 am

About 300 CE Sossianus Hierocles, as told by the later Lactantius,

“affirmed that Christ Himself was put to flight by the Jews, and having collected a band of nine hundred men, committed robberies”

(Lactantius, Divine Institutes, 5,3).

There was only a Jesus who:
  • "was put to flight by the Jews":

    And when I had given orders that all the roads should be carefully guarded, I charged the keepers of the gates to give admittance to none but Jesus, when he came; with the principal of his men: and to exclude the rest. And in case they aimed to force themselves in, to use stripes [in order to repel them.] Accordingly those that had received such a charge did as they were bidden: and Jesus came in, with a few others. And when I had ordered him to throw down his arms immediately: and told him that if he refused so to do, he was a dead man; he seeing armed men standing all round about him, was terryfied, and complyed. And as for those of his followers that were excluded, when they were informed that he was seized, they ran away. I then called Jesus to me by himself; and told him, that “I was not a stranger to that treacherous design he had against me; nor was I ignorant by whom he was sent for. That, however, I would forgive him what he had done already, if he would repent of it, and be faithful to me hereafter.” And thus, upon his promise to do all that I desired, I let him go, and gave him leave to get those whom he had formerly had with him together again.

    (Josephus, Vita 22)
  • "collected a band of nine hundred men":

    “Jesus, the brigand chief on the borderland of Ptolemais … with his force, which numbered eight hundred … band of brigands”

    (Vita 104-111)

    800 + 100 = 900.

    “ringleader … of the party of the sailors and destitute class, joined by some Galileans


hakeem
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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by hakeem » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:29 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:04 am
About 300 CE Sossianus Hierocles, as told by the later Lactantius,

“affirmed that Christ Himself was put to flight by the Jews, and having collected a band of nine hundred men, committed robberies”

(Lactantius, Divine Institutes, 5,3).

There was only a Jesus who:
  • "was put to flight by the Jews":

    And when I had given orders that all the roads should be carefully guarded, I charged the keepers of the gates to give admittance to none but Jesus, when he came; with the principal of his men: and to exclude the rest. And in case they aimed to force themselves in, to use stripes [in order to repel them.] Accordingly those that had received such a charge did as they were bidden: and Jesus came in, with a few others. And when I had ordered him to throw down his arms immediately: and told him that if he refused so to do, he was a dead man; he seeing armed men standing all round about him, was terryfied, and complyed. And as for those of his followers that were excluded, when they were informed that he was seized, they ran away. I then called Jesus to me by himself; and told him, that “I was not a stranger to that treacherous design he had against me; nor was I ignorant by whom he was sent for. That, however, I would forgive him what he had done already, if he would repent of it, and be faithful to me hereafter.” And thus, upon his promise to do all that I desired, I let him go, and gave him leave to get those whom he had formerly had with him together again.

    (Josephus, Vita 22)
  • "collected a band of nine hundred men":

    “Jesus, the brigand chief on the borderland of Ptolemais … with his force, which numbered eight hundred … band of brigands”

    (Vita 104-111)

    800 + 100 = 900.

    “ringleader … of the party of the sailors and destitute class, joined by some Galileans

When did Jesus meet Josephus? In the time of Tiberius??

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Giuseppe
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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:32 pm

hakeem wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:29 pm
When did Jesus meet Josephus? In the time of Tiberius??
No. Under Titus.

This Doudna's comment may make it more clear for you:


The force of the Josephus three-and-one crucifixion-survival story is difficult to weaken. The similarity to the Gospel Passion story is too alike to be unrelated coincidence, and the Josephus story is certainly presented as Josephus first-hand account with no sign that it is Josephus covertly inventing that story to counter Christianity. The Passion story of Jesus’s crucifixion is so central to the Jesus story, and Josephus dates it that story as being a story of something which occurred securely and narrowly dated some time between 68 and 70 ce. And the identification of Joseph “of Arimethea” as Josephus bar Matthias, both carrying out the same respective functions of appealing for permission to have the body taken down from the cross of the one who is resurrected/given medical treatment and survives, nails the case further. Josephus’s story of the three and one is correctly dated, and that is the correct original date of Jesus in the story of the crucifixion which became so central to the Christian gospel.

Note, in addition to the rest above, the impossible "coincidence" that breaks the camel's back (i.e. that makes me not more a mythicist, but a historicist):
  • Joseph of Arimathea was in past a secret disciple of the Gospel Jesus
  • Josephus never denied, in past, his secret alliance with Jesus son of Saphat:

    when I had given orders that all the roads should be carefully guarded, I charged the keepers of the gates to give admittance to none but Jesus, when he came; with the principal of his men: and to exclude the rest.

    (Vita 22)
This means only that "Mark" reported acritically the Joseph of Arimathea story without knowing, not even him ("Mark"), why Joseph was a secret disciple of Jesus.

hakeem
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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by hakeem » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:50 am

Giuseppe wrote:
This Doudna's comment may make it more clear for you:


The force of the Josephus three-and-one crucifixion-survival story is difficult to weaken. The similarity to the Gospel Passion story is too alike to be unrelated coincidence, and the Josephus story is certainly presented as Josephus first-hand account with no sign that it is Josephus covertly inventing that story to counter Christianity. The Passion story of Jesus’s crucifixion is so central to the Jesus story, and Josephus dates it that story as being a story of something which occurred securely and narrowly dated some time between 68 and 70 ce. And the identification of Joseph “of Arimethea” as Josephus bar Matthias, both carrying out the same respective functions of appealing for permission to have the body taken down from the cross of the one who is resurrected/given medical treatment and survives, nails the case further. Josephus’s story of the three and one is correctly dated, and that is the correct original date of Jesus in the story of the crucifixion which became so central to the Christian gospel.

Note, in addition to the rest above, the impossible "coincidence" that breaks the camel's back (i.e. that makes me not more a mythicist, but a historicist).........
Strange that you should say that. It is actually the opposite for me. The Josephus three-and-one crucifixion-survival story is a significant detail that is part of the evidence that the Jesus story was lifted from the works of Josephus.

In addition, that very Josephan "three-and-one crucifixion-survival story" is also evidence that all the NT Gospels were composed after c 96 CE or the composition of the Life of Flavius Josephus.

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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:50 am

hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:50 am
Strange that you should say that. It is actually the opposite for me. The Josephus three-and-one crucifixion-survival story is a significant detail that is part of the evidence that the Jesus story was lifted from the works of Josephus.
I thought so, too. But then what captured my attention was the rest of the implication: if the three/one story is not a coincidence but a real parallel, then also the secret discipleship of Joseph of Arimathea is a real parallel with the secret friendship between Josephus (in his Zealot phase) and Jesus son of Saphat. The latter can't be a coincidence nor a mere Gospel midrash from Josephus.
Just as the Galilean provenance of both the Gospel Jesus and Jesus son of Saphat.

Yourself have written:
hakeem wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:49 am
In the writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius it is corroborated that the Jews expected their Messianic rulers at around c 66-70 CE so it is simply false that Jesus the anointed in Antiquities of the Jews 20 could be the Jewish Messiah since the time of Pilate.

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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by hakeem » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:49 pm

hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:50 am
Strange that you should say that. It is actually the opposite for me. The Josephus three-and-one crucifixion-survival story is a significant detail that is part of the evidence that the Jesus story was lifted from the works of Josephus.
Giuseppe I thought so, too. But then what captured my attention was the rest of the implication: [b wrote:if[/b] the three/one story is not a coincidence but a real parallel, then also the secret discipleship of Joseph of Arimathea is a real parallel with the secret friendship between Josephus (in his Zealot phase) and Jesus son of Saphat. The latter can't be a coincidence nor a mere Gospel midrash from Josephus.
Just as the Galilean provenance of both the Gospel Jesus and Jesus son of Saphat.
In the very same "Life of Flavius Josephus" it is claimed Josephus decided to follow the sect of the Pharisees after he himself got acquainted with or followed other sects.
You must have noticed he mentioned nothing about following or getting acquainted any cult who worshiped a man called Jesus as a God.

The Life of Flavius Josephus
These sects are three: - The first is that of the Pharisees, the second that Sadducees, and the third that of the Essens, as we have frequently told you; for I thought that by this means I might choose the best, if I were once acquainted with them all; so I contented myself with hard fare, and underwent great difficulties, and went through them all.

Nor did I content myself with these trials only; but when I was informed that one, whose name was Banus, lived in the desert, and used no other clothing than grew upon trees, and had no other food than what grew of its own accord, and bathed himself in cold water frequently, both by night and by day, in order to preserve his chastity, I imitated him in those things, and continued with him three years.

(3) So when I had accomplished my desires, I returned back to the city, being now nineteen years old, and began to conduct myself according to the rules of the sect of the Pharisees, which is of kin to the sect of the Stoics, as the Greeks call them.

Josephus was no secret disciple of Jesus of Saphat but was openly a Pharisee since the age of 19 or from since c 58 CE.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:54 pm

hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:49 pm
Josephus was no secret disciple of Jesus of Saphat but was openly a Pharisee since the age of 19 or from since c 58 CE.
From what Josephus reports in Vita, it appears clearly that during his Zealot phase, Josephus was in secret league with Jesus son of Saphat.
Josephus never denied this dangerous association, not even when he became pro-Roman.

Hence "Mark" reported that Joseph of Arimathea was a "secret disciple" of Jesus without knowing what his source was really reporting.

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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by hakeem » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:08 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:54 pm
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:49 pm
Josephus was no secret disciple of Jesus of Saphat but was openly a Pharisee since the age of 19 or from since c 58 CE.
From what Josephus reports in Vita, it appears clearly that during his Zealot phase, Josephus was in secret league with Jesus son of Saphat.
Josephus never denied this dangerous association, not even when he became pro-Roman.
It is the opposite. Josephus never admitted to what you suggested.

The Life of Favius Josephus
......Jesus, the son of Sapphias, who principally set them on. He was ruler in Tiberias, a wicked man, and naturally disposed to make disturbances in matters of consequence; a seditious person he was indeed, and an innovator beyond every body else.

Giuseppe wrote:Hence "Mark" reported that Joseph of Arimathea was a "secret disciple" of Jesus without knowing what his source was really reporting.
Joseph of Arithmea was not Josephus and Jesus of Nazareth was Jesus the son of Saphat.

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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:39 am

hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:08 pm

It is the opposite. Josephus never admitted to what you suggested.
Josephus never denied that he, as Zealot, was in secret league with Jesus son of Saphat. You can say that he defamed Jesus son of Saphat when he became a pro-Roman propagandist, but the fact remains that he never denied his previous association with Jesus son of Saphat in his real past.
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:08 pm

Joseph of Arithmea was not Josephus
"Arimathea" is a pun on 'bar Matthias', and we know that the father of Josephus was named Matthias. Too much divine 'coincidence', here, sorry.

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Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by hakeem » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:27 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:39 am
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:08 pm

It is the opposite. Josephus never admitted to what you suggested.
Josephus never denied that he, as Zealot, was in secret league with Jesus son of Saphat. You can say that he defamed Jesus son of Saphat when he became a pro-Roman propagandist, but the fact remains that he never denied his previous association with Jesus son of Saphat in his real past.
It is a fact that in the works of Josephus the author did not admit or claim he was a secret disciple of Jesus the son of Saphat.
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:08 pm

Joseph of Arithmea was not Josephus
Giuseppe" wrote:Arimathea" is a pun on 'bar Matthias', and we know that the father of Josephus was named Matthias. Too much divine 'coincidence', here, sorry.
The Gospel writers were simply using names of characters and events found in the works of Josephus to fabricate their Jesus story. Nothing at all to do with divine co-incidence.

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