Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8627
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:33 am

hakeem wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:27 am
It is a fact that in the works of Josephus the author did not admit or claim he was a secret disciple of Jesus the son of Saphat.
It is a fact that the following equation is true:

to be a secret disciple of Jesus == to have ongoing covert dealings with Jesus

That Jesus was the identity of the one who lived of Josephus’s three, is a backward inference from the same story appearing (albeit in garbled form) in the Gospels featuring Jesus as that person. From Josephus’s Life, it is clear that Josephus had ongoing covert dealings with warrior commander Jesus in Galilee, though Josephus tells of those dealings in a self-serving way.

(source)

If you deny this evidence, then you are a Christian apologist.

hakeem
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by hakeem » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:10 pm

hakeem wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:27 am
It is a fact that in the works of Josephus the author did not admit or claim he was a secret disciple of Jesus the son of Saphat.
It is a fact that the following equation is true:

to be a secret disciple of Jesus == to have ongoing covert dealings with Jesus
Your equation has no value.

Josephus described Jesus the son of Sapphias as a wicked leader of a seditious group of mariners who even tried to have him killed or burn down his house.

Wars of the Jews 2.21.3
Now John irritated a great many, as did also one Jesus, the son of Sapphias, who was then governor of Tiberias. Then it was that Josephus's friends, and the guards of his body, were so affrighted at this violent assault of the multitude, that they all fled away but four; and as he was asleep, they awaked him, as the people were going to set fire to the house.


That Jesus was the identity of the one who lived of Josephus’s three, is a backward inference from the same story appearing (albeit in garbled form) in the Gospels featuring Jesus as that person. From Josephus’s Life, it is clear that Josephus had ongoing covert dealings with warrior commander Jesus in Galilee, though Josephus tells of those dealings in a self-serving way.

(source)

If you deny this evidence, then you are a Christian apologist.
[/quote]

Your garbled backward inference does not stand at all.

You must know that in "The Life of Flavius Josephus "Jesus the son of Sapphias lived in Galilee but the three crucified acquaintances of Josephus were found crucified when Josephus was coming back from Thecoa of Judah.

The Life of Flavius Jossephus
And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance...

There is no claim whatsoever that Jesus the son of Sapphias was in Thecoa in all the works of Josephus.

You can't deny this evidence even if you are a Christian/apologist.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8627
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:11 pm

hakeem wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:10 pm
Josephus described Jesus the son of Sapphias as a wicked leader of a seditious group of mariners who even tried to have him killed or burn down his house.
the Josephus you are talking about is the pro-Roman Flavius Josephus, not the Zealot Yosef ben Matityahu. The latter was in secret league with Jesus son of Saphat just as the former was his enemy and public defamer.

This, in addition to the fact that in Mark the pharisee Joseph of Arimathea was a secret disciple of Jesus, is a coincidence too much impossible to be a coincidence, therefore: it is not a coincidence.

hakeem wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:10 pm
There is no claim whatsoever that Jesus the son of Sapphias was in Thecoa in all the works of Josephus.
there is really evidence that Jesus ben Saphat joined John of Gischala by time the siege of Jerusalem started.

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 6683
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:11 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:11 pm
the Josephus you are talking about is the pro-Roman [Titus] Flavius Josephus, not the Zealot Yosef ben Matityahu (Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו‎ Yōsef ben Matiṯyāhu; Greek: Ἰώσηπος Ματθίου παῖς / Iṓsēpos Matthíou paîs)
Aren't they supposed to be one and the same person?

(though I wouldn't be surprised if Titus Flavius Josephus was a made-up entity based on Yosef ben Matityahu)

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8627
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:48 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:11 pm

Aren't they supposed to be one and the same person?
:D if you think that they are two distinct people, then accordingly you have to assume the presence of two people in Mark named both Joseph of Arimathea:
  • one was "a prominent member of the Council" (== the Pharisee pro-Roman Flavius Josephus)
  • the other "was waiting for the kingdom of God" (== the Zealot Yōsef ben Matiṯyāhu).
Which of the two was a secret disciple of Jesus (==in secret league with Jesus son of Saphat) ?

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 6683
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:58 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:48 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:11 pm

Aren't they supposed to be one and the same person?
:D if you think that they are two distinct people, then accordingly you have to assume the presence of two people in Mark named both Joseph of Arimathea:
  • one was "a prominent member of the Council" (== the Pharisee pro-Roman Flavius Josephus)
  • the other "was waiting for the kingdom of God" (== the Zealot Yōsef ben Matiṯyāhu).
Which of the two was a secret disciple of Jesus (==in secret league with Jesus son of Saphat) ?

Before I answer your question, can you give me the passages on which you base your propositions that
  • one was "a prominent member of the Council" (== the Pharisee pro-Roman Flavius Josephus) -- Mk 15:43, I presume
  • the other "was waiting for the kingdom of God" (== the Zealot Yōsef ben Matiṯyāhu) ??




And you have to consider the Joseph of Arimathea of Glastonbury Abbey too :D :lol:
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8627
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:28 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:58 pm
Mk 14:43, I presume
no, it's Mark 15:43:
Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God

:D

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 6683
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:54 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:28 am

Mark 15:43:

Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God

:D
I plead Typo !

I've added 'also himself' to the bolded and italicized last bit. I presume that's what you mean by "two people in Mark named Joseph of Arimathea" ...

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8627
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:00 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:54 am
I presume that's what you mean by "two people in Mark named Joseph of Arimathea" ...
It is called 'double face'.

Image

hakeem
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Hierocles talked about the Jesus active during the First Jewish Revolt

Post by hakeem » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:46 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:28 am
MrMacSon wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:58 pm
Mk 14:43, I presume
no, it's Mark 15:43:
Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God

:D
Again, what you say is chronologically bizarre. Josephus, in his autobiography, was born c 39 CE but Joseph of Arimathea was a character in gMark who supposedly witness the crucifixion of Jesus and asked for his dead body between c 27-37 CE when Pilate was Governor.

Post Reply