dating the birth stories?

[MrMacSon]

The stories of NT Jesus and Paul are products of stories found in the works of Josephus.

Hardly, if at all. The stories of NT Jesus and Paul are mostly products of eisegesis of the LXX/Septuagint and new midrashim resulting from that eisegesis, with eisegesis of a few non-Judaic concepts thrown in: Plato, so-called pagan & mystery religions, etc. - a bit of syncretism.

[hakeem]

The stories of NT Jesus and Paul are products of stories found in the works of Josephus.

Hardly, if at all. The stories of NT Jesus and Paul are mostly products of eisegesis of the LXX/Septuagint and new midrashim resulting from that eisegesis, with eisegesis of a few non-Judaic concepts thrown in: Plato, so-called pagan & mystery religions, etc. - a bit of syncretism.

Perhaps you have never read the works of Josephus.Virtually all the elements for NT Jesus stories are found in his writings

The Life of Flavius Josephus.

Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

The Lukan Jesus of Nazareth will outperform Josephus--this Jesus will reason with doctors at the temple at 12 years of age.

Luke 2

42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast...........46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

The Life of Flavius Josephus.

3. But when I was in the twenty-sixth year of my age, it happened that I took a voyage to Rome, and this on the occasion which I shall now describe. At the time when Felix was procurator of Judea there were certain priests of my acquaintance, and very excellent persons they were, whom on a small and trifling occasion he had put into bonds, and sent to Rome to plead their cause before Caesar.

Acts 25

14 And when they had been there many days, Festus declared Paul's cause unto the king, saying, There is a certain man left in bonds by Felix:.................20 And because I doubted of such manner of questions, I asked him whether he would go to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these matters.

21 But when Paul had appealed to be reserved unto the hearing of Augustus, I commanded him to be kept till I might send him to Caesar.

There are many many examples of stories of Jesus and even Paul that were lifted from the works of Josephus.

Josephus is the "father" of NT Jesus and Paul.

NT Jesus and Paul have the same "DNA" as Josephus.

[MrMacSon]

• fify, -

Virtually all the Elements of some NT Jesus stories can be or are similar to some stores found in [Josephus's] writings

eg. Mark 13 and Josephus' account of Jesus ben Ananias in War 6,5.3 (which Ted Weeden thinks Josephus made up from passages in Jerimiah)

fify, again -

There are many many Some examples of stories of Jesus and even Paul that were lifted from the works of Josephus.

NT Jesus and Paul have the same "DNA" as Josephus.

• Perhaps, though Josephus would be an uncle or distant cousin of NT Jesus and Paul, rather then being a "father".

[hakeem]

• Perhaps, though Josephus would be an uncle or distant cousin of NT Jesus and Paul, rather then being a "father".

Please. I am not referring to a biological father.

The stories of Jesus and Paul are products of the writings of Josephus.

In other words, NT Jesus and Paul were "born" after at least c 95 CE or after the completion of the works of Josephus.

Even the Pauline teaching about circumcision is found in the autobiography of Josephus.


The Life of Flavius Josephus

23. At this time it was that two great men, who were under the jurisdiction of the king [Agrippa] came to me out of the region of Trachonius, bringing their horses and their arms, and carrying with them their money also; and when the Jews would force them to be circumcised, if they would stay among them, I would not permit them to have any force put upon them, (11) but said to them, "Every one ought to worship God according to his own inclinations, and not to be constrained by force; and that these men, who had fled to us for protection, ought not to be so treated as to repent of their coming hither.

The Pauline teaching about circumcision :

Acts 15

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Galatians 6

13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

The "birth" [the production] of Jesus and Paul are all of Josephus.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,

Lena Einhorn has certainly put certainly a good argument that at least some NT characters and aspects of the NT narratives were borrowed from Josephus in her 2016 book, A Shift in Time.

The big problem with Lena Einhorn is that according to the internal evidence in gMark mini apocalypse (which indicates the day of the Lord to happen very soon after the events of 70 CE in Judea), that gospel was written well before around 78 CE (publishing of Josephus' Wars in Greek) and around 94 CE (publishing of Josephus' Antiquities and Life).
Of course, I don't buy Cora saying gMark was written by Irenaeus.

Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

to Cora,

Very interesting. I had to think about it. What you print is NOT the beginning of the gospel of Marcion. It is what Irenaeus WANTS us to think the beginning is. He was really not giving the original up to us. Can you follow it? It is Irenaeus who does that all. I have found out that Justin has invented the name Jesus and his papers went to Irenaeus. Before it was Isu. As you can see the name Jesus is there, which means it comes from Irenaeus and not from Marcion.
The original story was written after 70. But it played in 30, so they were then already placing back!! Only they were not hiding that it was written in 72. Paul got hold of it (85/90) and I don't know what he did. Until recently I did not even knew he had it. He does not talk about it in his letters. I don't know if he used it and how. I am not sure how it ended and if he used the date of 30. We also do not know that from Marcion. The last page of Marcion is by Irenaeus. After entering Jerusalem everything is fake of course. So we cannot know. We will never know. I know some things about this gospel, but not enough.
The canonical gospels were written by Irenaeus, except John. Paul knew John. I think these two gospels (Marcion = Paul, and John) were "spread". Justin knew Marcions gospel in rome, so they were moving among chrestians (small groups). Irenaeus forged John. John had the familiar arrest etc to the end story. But John is a gnostic and it is not even meant as a factional story. It is more of an artistic personal impression. Paul's gospel could have had another ending. I am almost sure it did. But Irenaeus glued the Jerusalem episode from John onto the 3 gospels he made. So that is all we have. The "installation of the eucharist" comes from Irenaeus. The 3 synoptics are all fake, made by Irenaeus. Only there are a few pieces of Marcion in Mathew (the one he wanted for himself, he completely wrote Mathew) and some more in Luke. There is no more. The gospel of Marcion cannot be restored. It plays in Judea, not in Galilea, that I know. There is no Galilea in it. These gospels all play in 30, and were written according to Irenaeus in 35-65, even before the original story was written, because it "truly" happened . But the original was a written story, fictional, about a human being, about a prophet. I would like to tell you more, but I am finished for now. I suspect Irenaeus a lot of having picked up in Judea an original copy for additional information. Did you know he mentions himself in Mathew in the sermon on the mount?
I have never heard of a scam like this. It was about Jahweh. Jahweh had to win from the gnostic god. Paul and Marcion did not use the OT, they only had isu/jesus. We had to learn the OT and Jahweh because they won. The whole world under Jahweh until today.

The plot keeps thickening!
And there are many admissions of your ignorance.

The gospel of Marcion cannot be restored. It plays in Judea, not in Galilea, that I know. There is no Galilea in it.

Ben Smith did an admirable job to restore part of it: see viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765#p39304

And there is "Galilee" in Marcion gospel: see 14:1, at the start of the gospel "He came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee"

He does not talk about it in his letters

Yes, but Paul did give info about the earthly Jesus:
from "Israelites, ... whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh ..." (Ro9:4-5 YLT) and "come of a woman, come under law" (Gal4:4 YLT) (as a descendant of (allegedly) Abraham (Gal3:16), Jesse (Ro15:12) & David (Ro1:3)), "found in appearance as a man" (Php2:8) "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Ro8:3), "the one man, Jesus Christ" (Ro5:15) (who had brothers (1Co9:5), one of them called "James", whom Paul met (Gal1:19)), "humbled himself" (Php2:8) in "poverty" (2Co8:9) as "servant of the Jews" (Ro15:8) and "was crucified in weakness" (2Co13:4) in "Zion" (Ro9:31-33 & Ro11:26-27) http://historical-jesus.info/19.html

I suspect Irenaeus a lot of having picked up in Judea an original copy for additional information. Did you know he mentions himself in Mathew in the sermon on the mount?

And in which verse(s) would that be?

Cordially, Bernard

[hakeem]

The big problem with Lena Einhorn is that according to the internal evidence in gMark mini apocalypse (which indicates the day of the Lord to happen very soon after the events of 70 CE in Judea), that gospel was written well before around 78 CE (publishing of Josephus' Wars in Greek) and around 94 CE (publishing of Josephus' Antiquities and Life).
Of course, I don't buy Cora saying gMark was written by Irenaeus.

Actually, stories in gMark [the earliest version of the Jesus story] appear to show that the so-called Gospel was written after the "Life of Flavius Josephus" composed after "Antiquities of the Jews" which was composed about c 94 CE.

The peculiar story where three persons were crucified and one survived after they were taken down is found only in the Life of Flavius Josephus.

The Life of Flavius Josephus

75 I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance.

I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.

Mark 15:27

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

Mark 15:43

Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

Only in the Life of Flavius is it claimed there was a character called Jesus who was the leader of a band of mariners and poor people.

The Life of Flavius Josephus 12 .

So Jesus the son of Sapphias, one of those whom we have already mentioned as the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people, prevented us, and took with him certain Galileans, and set the entire palace on fire..

Mark 1:16

Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

[MrMacSon]

• Perhaps, though Josephus would be an uncle or distant cousin of NT Jesus and Paul, rather then being a "father".

Please. I am not referring to a biological father.

• Yes, I know

The stories of Jesus and Paul are products of the writings of Josephus.

• Yes, aspects of them are.

This is really interesting and noteworthy -

Even the Pauline teaching about circumcision is found in the autobiography of Josephus.

The Life of Flavius Josephus

23. ... two great men, who were under the jurisdiction of the king [Agrippa] came to me out of the region of Trachonius, bringing their horses and their arms, and carrying with them their money also; and when the Jews would force them to be circumcised, if they would stay among them, I would not permit them to have any force put upon them, (11) but said to them, "Every one ought to worship God according to his own inclinations, and not to be constrained by force; and that these men, who had fled to us for protection, ought not to be so treated as to repent of their coming hither."

• Thank you hakeem.

The Pauline teaching about circumcision :

Acts 15

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, [Unless] ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Galatians 6

13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

The "birth" [the production] of Jesus and Paul are all of [may somewhat be due to] Josephus.

[cora]

Hai MrMacSon,
Yes, Josephus was used a lot. And the LXX was used. And Justin was used. I heard Lena Einhorn for an hour on the radio, and later also read from her. Although things from different parts of the book are used, which is interesting, she takes as Jesus the Egyptian, operating in 50. This is wrong, but she is so convinced that that is him, that it is almost a belief. It cannot be done like that. The original name was not Jesus, but Isu. And he was a prophet, not a messiah-type, Christ or king. By which can be seen that Mark and Mathew are false, pushing for a messiah-interpretation, not telling that a messiah is a warrior who is fighting the romans.

I know what they are thinking but they are wrong. Tertullianus was a personal convert of Irenaeus, which means that he wrote what Irenaeus gave him to write. Or actually to translate, because Irenaeus could not write latin. He did what his teacher wanted. Now Irenaeus (the church) wanted to destroy Marcion's gospel in favour of their own gospels. And he did: he divided it over the synoptics and it was gone, never to be seen again. What he did not want was destroyed. It is also in Mark, and in Mathew, but the most is in Luke. Which does not mean we have it now. The beginning is wrong, the end in Jerusalem is wrong, only the middle part will do, but you will still have to remove family, miracles and disciples, which were all not there. Irenaeus is making it all much to much look like Luke. From the entering in Jerusalem everything is fake, it had a totally different ending. So in the end he gave to Tert. exactly what he wanted US to think the gospel was. But it wasn't. I tell you this Irenaeus is much more intelligent than we. He is even preparing for the far away future. I have never seen someone like him.

I think I have found the real first sentence of the gospel, which is then written by Paul (and a forgery of the original story about the prophet of course.) It goes as follows: Our Lord was NOT born of a woman. He came down and entered the sphere of the creator god, and landed on the road between Jerusalem and Jericho, in the form and the image and the likeness of a man, but without a body".
I guess that is it. And it learns us: Paul was talking in his letters about a god/divine spirit from the universe, NOT about a human being. He was from outside the sphere of Jahweh. This was the only way of bringing a divine spirit to earth, there was no virgin Mary yet. The original story plays in JUDEA. Paul and Marcion are gnostic, nothing wrong with that. See what we all learn from this. This little piece comes from the British Museum.
What do you say? Cora.

[Bernard Muller]

to Hakeem,
Mk 13:17 And alas for those [fleeing to the mountains] who are with child and for those who give suck in those days
Mk 13:19 For those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mk 13:20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days
Mk 13:26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
"Those days" indicates the days immediately following the fall of the temple and its destruction stone by stone.

More about the dating of gMark: http://historical-jesus.info/41.html

It is rather difficult to accept that the author of gMark would find some inspiration from two or three elements of Josephus' writings. And the alleged coincidences are rather remote.

Cordially, Bernard