dating the birth stories?

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Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:43 pm

to hakeem,
Here is something I wanted to answer, but I missed:
And why would Tacitus be interested in Christus?
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition,
Probably to further denigrate the Christians and their belief by saying Jesus was put to death by Roman authority. That would make Christians worshipping a criminal.

Cordially, Bernard

hakeem
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:21 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:43 pm
to hakeem,
Here is something I wanted to answer, but I missed:
And why would Tacitus be interested in Christus?
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition,
Probably to further denigrate the Christians and their belief by saying Jesus was put to death by Roman authority. That would make Christians worshipping a criminal.

Cordially, Bernard
We know that Tacitus did not write about Christus because the word ChrEstianos is not derived from ChrIstus.

It has been proved that the original word was ChrEstianos in Tacitus' Annals.

Charles Wilson
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Charles Wilson » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:37 pm

Jay Raskin considers two passages, one from Tacitus and the other from Suetonius. BTW, I know you, Bernard, are not thrilled with Raskin here but there may be some Meta-Material that complicates things:

Raskin, Christs and Christianities, p. 99 ( ISBN-10 : 1413497918, ISBN-13 : 978-1413497915 , https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Christ ... 1413497918 ):

"What is interesting is the context of these two passages. Neither Tacitus nor Suetonius refers to Christians before or after this point in their works. If we allow that they are both working from a third source, we must allow that it is quite a fantastic coincidence that they both chose to include exactly the same incident and do not choose any other incidents involving Christians from any other sources..."

Raskin then examines a possibility that the "Third Source" idea need not carry all the weight. He notes that both Tacitus and Suetonius use the phrase "mischievous superstition". There is the possibility that since Suetonius follows Tacitus by about 10 years, he found the quote and used it.

"Actually, there is an alternative to the hypothesis that the passage concerning was in Tacitus and Suetonius copied it. The alternative is that someone interpolated the Christian reference into both works..."

After a lengthy analysis, Raskin lays the interpolation at the feet of Eusebius and concludes:

"We may construct the original sentence as, "Punishment was inflicted on the Jews, a class of men given to an old and mischievous superstition."

[Note: The italicized part of the sentence just above is produced in a different font in the book, as part of Raskin's overall analysis.]

YMMV.

CW

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MrMacSon
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:09 pm

hakeem wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:28 am

In Sacred History, Sulpitius Severus quotes a passage similar to Tacitus' Annals 15.44 and the phrase " Christus, from whom the name had its origin" is missing.

Sulpitius Severus Sacred History 2.29

And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent

Arthur Drews proposed, 100 yrs ago, that this passage, Sulpitius Severus Sacred History 2.29, dated ~ 400-402 AD/CE, and the relevant parts of Annals 15.44, generally attributed to the author that the whole of Annals is attributed to, Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (c. AD 56 – c. 120), were written/inserted at the same time and probably by Sulpitius Severus (though it could have been by someone else).

The fact there is little if any provenance for Annals 15,44 -indeed for the whole of Annals- other than this 'reflection' in Sulpitius Severus Sacred History 2.29 raises doubts about the veracity of Annals 15,44 as does the fact that Tacitus namesake, Marcus Claudius Tacitus Augustus; (c. 200 – June 276), Roman Emperor briefly from 275 to 276, is said to have had a fascination with propagating works attributed to the earlier Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus.

hakeem wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:28 am
Also, it is a fact that in the extant copy of Tacitus' Annals the word ChrEstianos was manipulated into ChrIstianos.
This did happen, but, given it's said to have happened in the 8th century AD/CE, what it means is hard to fathom.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrMacSon
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:18 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:43 pm
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition,
Richard Carrier has argued that sentence is an interpolation and Annals 15.44 works fine without it.

Jay Raskins has proposed Tiberius was inserted to replace Nero and Pontius Pilate was inserted to replace Porcius Fetus, a procurator under Nero.

Raskins argues that Antiquities 20.8.10 supports that proposition, viz. -

Upon Festus’s coming into Judea, it happened that Judea was afflicted by the robbers, while all the villages were set on fire, and plundered by them. And then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers, grew numerous. They made use of small swords, not much different in length from the Persian acinacae, but somewhat crooked, and like the Roman sicae, [or sickles,] as they were called; and from these weapons these robbers got their denomination; and with these weapons they slew a great many; for they mingled themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were come up in crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said before, and easily slew those that they had a mind to slay. They also came frequently upon the villages belonging to their enemies, with their weapons, and plundered them, and set them on fire. So Festus sent forces, both horsemen and footmen, to fall upon those that had been seduced by a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness. Accordingly, those forces that were sent destroyed both him that had deluded them, and those that were his followers also.

See https://jayraskin.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/294/

nb.
a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness


Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:41 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:18 pm
Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:43 pm
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition,
Richard Carrier has argued that sentence is an interpolation and Annals 15.44 works fine without it.

Jay Raskins has proposed Tiberius was inserted to replace Nero and Pontius Pilate was inserted to replace Porcius Fetus, a procurator under Nero.

Raskins argues that Antiquities 20.8.10 supports that proposition, viz. -

Upon Festus’s coming into Judea, it happened that Judea was afflicted by the robbers, while all the villages were set on fire, and plundered by them. And then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers, grew numerous. They made use of small swords, not much different in length from the Persian acinacae, but somewhat crooked, and like the Roman sicae, [or sickles,] as they were called; and from these weapons these robbers got their denomination; and with these weapons they slew a great many; for they mingled themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were come up in crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said before, and easily slew those that they had a mind to slay. They also came frequently upon the villages belonging to their enemies, with their weapons, and plundered them, and set them on fire. So Festus sent forces, both horsemen and footmen, to fall upon those that had been seduced by a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness. Accordingly, those forces that were sent destroyed both him that had deluded them, and those that were his followers also.

See https://jayraskin.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/294/

nb.
a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness

Speculations. That's typical of Mythicists trying to eliminate any data supporting an earthly human Jesus.

Cordially, Bernard

cora
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by cora » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:27 am

MacSon,
What would it mean? Changing from chrestianos to christianos? It means that until then chrestianos was in use, coming from the chrestos in Paulus, and therefore the NT. Under pressure from the catholic church this was changed in christianos. This change was not made in one year. It took many centuries. Christos is supposed to mean Messiah, Chrestos means Saviour.
Too bad the greeks have a word for messiah, and even a word for anointed, which both is not christos. It is a simple forgery. Christos means somebody who has smeared himself top to bottom with oil, which the greeks did before taking a bath (they had no soap).

hakeem
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:08 am

cora wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:27 am
MacSon,
What would it mean? Changing from chrestianos to christianos? It means that until then chrestianos was in use, coming from the chrestos in Paulus, and therefore the NT. Under pressure from the catholic church this was changed in christianos. This change was not made in one year. It took many centuries. Christos is supposed to mean Messiah, Chrestos means Saviour.
Too bad the greeks have a word for messiah, and even a word for anointed, which both is not christos. It is a simple forgery. Christos means somebody who has smeared himself top to bottom with oil, which the greeks did before taking a bath (they had no soap).
It would appear that soap was already in existence for about 2800 years before the time of Tiberius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#:~:t ... 2200%20BC.

The earliest recorded evidence of the production of soap-like materials dates back to around 2800 BC in ancient Babylon.[10] A formula for soap consisting of water, alkali, and cassia oil was written on a Babylonian clay tablet around 2200 BC................[11]In ancient Palestine, the ashes from barilla plants, such as species of Salsola, saltwort (Seidlitzia rosmarinus) and Anabasis, were used in soap production, known as potash.[14][15]


Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:00 pm

Too bad the greeks have a word for messiah, and even a word for anointed, which both is not christos.
Isaiah 45:1 LXX has Cyrus called Christos ('χριστῷ').
Thus said Jehovah, To His anointed ['χριστῷ'], to Cyrus, Whose right hand I have laid hold on, To subdue nations before him, Yea, loins of kings I loose, To open before him two-leaved doors, Yea, gates are not shut:

In the epistle of Barnabas, the two first letters for "Jesus" are IH. Note: H is the capital letter for η as in Ἰησοῦ.
E of B, 9:8 "For it says, "And Abraham circumcised from his household eighteen men and three hundred." What then was the knowledge that was given to him? Notice that he first mentions the eighteen, and after a pause the three hundred. The eighteen is I (=ten) and H (=8) -- you have Jesus -- and because the cross was destined to have grace in the T he says "and three hundred." So he indicates Jesus in the two letters and the cross in the other."

Cordially, Bernard

cora
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by cora » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:20 pm

Hi B, I do not do Barnabas because I do not now who that is supposed to be, but the text is from after 200.
Actually the jewish word is Khrist, changed in the LXX obviously. Your christos in Paul is a forgery from chrestos. Chrestos was in the NT until at least 450, and there was no christos. Remember that. It took a large part of the middle ages to make all the changes.
Chrestos means in connection with a god, saviour. So Paul was talking about a saviour, and Isu was a god. Changed in Jesus, Jesus was a god in the universe. Do some thinking. And start looking for the forgeries in Paul. Does a divine spirit in the universe have a brother in Jerusalem?????? Cora.

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