dating the birth stories?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
hakeem
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem » Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:26 pm

robert j wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:27 am
hakeem wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:23 am

Which manuscript of Barnabas is dated before c 120? The King James version?
We all shoot ourselves in the foot occasionally. And sometimes it can be quite revealing.
You did just that.

No early manuscripts of the Barnabas Epistle have been found.

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Jax
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Jax » Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:54 pm

hakeem wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:07 pm
It must also be noted that Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger do not mention anyone called Jesus. As clearly stated, in the NT, many persons would be called Christ so it cannot be assumed that the name Christ could only refer to NT Jesus. In fact, in the Gospels it is claimed there was another person who was using the name of Christ in the time of Pilate.
I find this to be a good point. Some do not realize that these three men all knew each other and were contemporizes. Both Pliny and Tacitus were governors in Asia minor during the early second century, Tacitus in Asia and Pliny in Bithynia and Pontis. All three were part of the Emperor households.

It would seem reasonable, as they stayed in contact with each other, to suppose that they would all be writing about the same thing using the same terminology. Now, none of these men were Christian and as it looks like any reference to a Christ in writing by Christians was in the form of the nomina sacra, either they had access to written material that used Christ written out in full instead of the NS, or their source of information was verbal from actual Christians, perhaps the ones reported by Pliny. If memory serves, Suetonius and Tacitus both use the term Chrestus. Is this consistent with Pliny?

Are the three reporting on a Chrestus that has no name of Jesus but just Chrestus?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:06 pm

Jax wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:54 pm
If memory serves, Suetonius and Tacitus both use the term Chrestus.
The significance of the term Chrestianos in Tacitus is probably medieval.

Pliny has Christo quasi deo and Tacitus has auctor nominis eius Christus.

ETA: Even today Christ is still Christ in French, whereas Christian is Chrétien.

hakeem
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem » Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:39 pm

Jax wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:54 pm
hakeem wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:07 pm
It must also be noted that Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger do not mention anyone called Jesus. As clearly stated, in the NT, many persons would be called Christ so it cannot be assumed that the name Christ could only refer to NT Jesus. In fact, in the Gospels it is claimed there was another person who was using the name of Christ in the time of Pilate.
I find this to be a good point. Some do not realize that these three men all knew each other and were contemporizes. Both Pliny and Tacitus were governors in Asia minor during the early second century, Tacitus in Asia and Pliny in Bithynia and Pontis. All three were part of the Emperor households.

It would seem reasonable, as they stayed in contact with each other, to suppose that they would all be writing about the same thing using the same terminology. Now, none of these men were Christian and as it looks like any reference to a Christ in writing by Christians was in the form of the nomina sacra, either they had access to written material that used Christ written out in full instead of the NS, or their source of information was verbal from actual Christians, perhaps the ones reported by Pliny. If memory serves, Suetonius and Tacitus both use the term Chrestus. Is this consistent with Pliny?

Are the three reporting on a Chrestus that has no name of Jesus but just Chrestus?
The problem is that ChrEstos and ChrIstos are not normally used as names of Jews. ChrEstos [the good] and ChrIstos [the anointed] are found in the Greek Septuagint

In the Septuagint, 2 Samuel, King Saul is the Lord's anointed [ChrIstos] and the in the Psalms105 the Lord is good [ChrEstos].

What is most strange is that up to the 4th century, in the Codex Sinaiticus, it is claimed that people who believed in ChrIstos were called ChrEstianos.

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Jax
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Jax » Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:35 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:54 pm
If memory serves, Suetonius and Tacitus both use the term Chrestus.
The significance of the term Chrestianos in Tacitus is probably medieval.

Pliny has Christo quasi deo and Tacitus has auctor nominis eius Christus.

ETA: Even today Christ is still Christ in French, whereas Christian is Chrétien.
Shame that spin doesn't post here anymore, his posts could be very informative.

So Pliny and Tacitus agree with each other. This would make sense as they had regular correspondence with each other.

IIRC Suetonius still writes about a Chrestus in the rein of Claudius. Different person altogether?

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Jax
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Jax » Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:49 am

hakeem wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:39 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:54 pm
hakeem wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:07 pm
It must also be noted that Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger do not mention anyone called Jesus. As clearly stated, in the NT, many persons would be called Christ so it cannot be assumed that the name Christ could only refer to NT Jesus. In fact, in the Gospels it is claimed there was another person who was using the name of Christ in the time of Pilate.
I find this to be a good point. Some do not realize that these three men all knew each other and were contemporizes. Both Pliny and Tacitus were governors in Asia minor during the early second century, Tacitus in Asia and Pliny in Bithynia and Pontis. All three were part of the Emperor households.

It would seem reasonable, as they stayed in contact with each other, to suppose that they would all be writing about the same thing using the same terminology. Now, none of these men were Christian and as it looks like any reference to a Christ in writing by Christians was in the form of the nomina sacra, either they had access to written material that used Christ written out in full instead of the NS, or their source of information was verbal from actual Christians, perhaps the ones reported by Pliny. If memory serves, Suetonius and Tacitus both use the term Chrestus. Is this consistent with Pliny?

Are the three reporting on a Chrestus that has no name of Jesus but just Chrestus?
The problem is that ChrEstos and ChrIstos are not normally used as names of Jews. ChrEstos [the good] and ChrIstos [the anointed] are found in the Greek Septuagint

In the Septuagint, 2 Samuel, King Saul is the Lord's anointed [ChrIstos] and the in the Psalms105 the Lord is good [ChrEstos].

What is most strange is that up to the 4th century, in the Codex Sinaiticus, it is claimed that people who believed in ChrIstos were called ChrEstianos.
I could see the early Christians in the main referring to themselves as "Chrestianos in Christus". If anything the wordplay would appeal to them, like with for instance IXThYC. They seem to be for the most part a literary cult, wordplay is the frosting center for folks like this.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:08 am

Jax wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:35 am
IIRC Suetonius still writes about a Chrestus in the rein of Claudius. Different person altogether?
Yes, Suetonius has Chrestus. Could be a different figure altogether. Not sure, though. There is that weird matchup between Suetonius seemingly implying that Chrestus instigated trouble at Rome and Revelation 11.8 saying that the Lord was crucified in the Great City, whereas the Great City in the rest of Revelation seems to be Rome. I am of the opinion that the Great City in verse 8 is the same as the Holy City in verse 2, which houses the Temple of verse 1, and is therefore Jerusalem in chapter 11, but I could be wrong. (I also think that Revelation is a composite or layered book, and I could be wrong about that, too.)

Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:26 am

to hakeem,
No early manuscripts of the Barnabas Epistle have been found.
But the same goes for all other early Christian writings.
The dates of writings at the site you provided are just opinion
Obviously, you did not read: http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html#barnabas

Cordially, Bernard

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Jax
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Jax » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:33 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:08 am
Jax wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:35 am
IIRC Suetonius still writes about a Chrestus in the rein of Claudius. Different person altogether?
Yes, Suetonius has Chrestus. Could be a different figure altogether. Not sure, though. There is that weird matchup between Suetonius seemingly implying that Chrestus instigated trouble at Rome and Revelation 11.8 saying that the Lord was crucified in the Great City, whereas the Great City in the rest of Revelation seems to be Rome. I am of the opinion that the Great City in verse 8 is the same as the Holy City in verse 2, which houses the Temple of verse 1, and is therefore Jerusalem in chapter 11, but I could be wrong. (I also think that Revelation is a composite or layered book, and I could be wrong about that, too.)
Arggggg! "now where did I put that noose?" :confusedsmiley:

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:58 am

Jax wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:33 am
Arggggg!
That is what we sign up for in this field. :D

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