Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

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rgprice
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Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by rgprice » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:41 am

Are there such things? The proposition of Klinghardt is that Matthew is derived from Mark and Marcion, and Luke is derived from Matthew, Mark and Marcion. If this is the case, I would expect to see cases of agreement between Matthew and Marcion against Luke. Does any such thing exist?

lsayre
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by lsayre » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:13 am

rgprice wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:41 am
Are there such things? The proposition of Klinghardt is that Matthew is derived from Mark and Marcion, and Luke is derived from Matthew, Mark and Marcion. If this is the case, I would expect to see cases of agreement between Matthew and Marcion against Luke. Does any such thing exist?
I believe Stephan Huller has enumerated passages from Tertullian's quoting of Marcion's Gospel that are not found in Luke, but rather are found in Mark or Matthew.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:14 am

rgprice wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:41 am
Are there such things? The proposition of Klinghardt is that Matthew is derived from Mark and Marcion, and Luke is derived from Matthew, Mark and Marcion. If this is the case, I would expect to see cases of agreement between Matthew and Marcion against Luke. Does any such thing exist?
Complicated issue. You can look here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1757. Some of these examples have been debunked (Matthew 5.17, for example, which is based upon a misunderstanding of Tertullian).

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Secret Alias
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:27 am

The Antitheses

rgprice
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by rgprice » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:57 am

Thanks Ben.

So this seems like a relevant one:
Matthew 12:
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Luke 8:
19 Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”

21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Marcion:
19 ... 20 Some people told him, “Your mother and your brothers stand outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, "Who is my mother and who are my brothers except these who hear my words and do them?”
Details can be found in the link Ben provided above.

This would seem to be an agreement between Marcion and Matthew against Luke. A possible explanation is that this text was in Marcion, Matthew copied it from Marcion, but Luke did not. Another would be that Marcion copied this text from Matthew (which seems a bit more unlikely).

It would be very difficult to explain this issue on the basis of Marcion having redacted Luke, since this passage doesn't exist in Luke.

Ken Olson
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by Ken Olson » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:26 am

rgprice wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:57 am
This would seem to be an agreement between Marcion and Matthew against Luke. A possible explanation is that this text was in Marcion, Matthew copied it from Marcion, but Luke did not. Another would be that Marcion copied this text from Matthew (which seems a bit more unlikely).

It would be very difficult to explain this issue on the basis of Marcion having redacted Luke, since this passage doesn't exist in Luke.
To complicate matters, it's an agreement between Marcion and Matthew *and Mark* [Mark 3.31] against Luke, for Mark has the question as well. Moreover Mark and Matthew agree in placing the pericope about Jesus' true relative after the Beelzebul pericope (where Jesus' True Relatives is the second half of the interrupted story begun in Mark 3.19-22, into which Beelzebul has been intercalated), which Marcion and Luke do not.

It would seem reasonable to suggest that Matthew is following Mark, not Marcion, here.

Why do you consider the theory that Marcion knew Matthew less likely than the reverse?

BeDuhn suggests, based on Tertullian's On the Flesh of Christ 7, that Tertullian's copy of Luke had the question "Who are my mothers and brothers" in it (First New Testament, 146).

Best,

Ken

rgprice
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by rgprice » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:22 am

Ken Olson wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:26 am
To complicate matters, it's an agreement between Marcion and Matthew *and Mark* [Mark 3.31] against Luke, for Mark has the question as well. Moreover Mark and Matthew agree in placing the pericope about Jesus' true relative after the Beelzebul pericope (where Jesus' True Relatives is the second half of the interrupted story begun in Mark 3.19-22, into which Beelzebul has been intercalated), which Marcion and Luke do not.

It would seem reasonable to suggest that Matthew is following Mark, not Marcion, here.

Why do you consider the theory that Marcion knew Matthew less likely than the reverse?

BeDuhn suggests, based on Tertullian's On the Flesh of Christ 7, that Tertullian's copy of Luke had the question "Who are my mothers and brothers" in it (First New Testament, 146).

Best,

Ken
You are correct Ken. If we assume that there never was any version of Luke with the question, then it would be more reasonable to assume that Matthew is following Mark. Yet, if Luke doesn't have the question, then it would still be true that Marcion couldn't be a redaction of Luke.

However, you bring up the complicating factor that possibly Luke did have it, but for some reason its been removed in later copies. So, still looking for other better examples...

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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:02 am

Matthew 12:
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Luke 8:
19 Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”

21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Marcion:
19 ... 20 Some people told him, “Your mother and your brothers stand outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, "Who is my mother and who are my brothers except these who hear my words and do them?”
Marcion's rendition of the passage can be explained as follows:
In gLuke, the narrator is the one who declares "Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him".
What the narrator says is supposed to be true.
But in Marcion's gospel, it is "some people" who says "Your mother and your brothers stand outside".
"some people" can be misled into thinking that, or by the false claim of this woman with young men.
Therefore, Marcion avoided the existence of true mother and brothers of Jesus, which fits his preaching.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rgprice
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by rgprice » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:16 am

From reading through Ben's original thread on this topic, it doesn't look too fruitful. Perhaps it is to be expected since we don't have direct evidence, but it seems that every case has some complicating factor that prevents the conclusion that Marcion's Gospel definitely had elements that exist in Matthew but not Luke. Does that about sum things up?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Marcionite agreements with Matthew against Luke?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:25 am

rgprice wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:16 am
From reading through Ben's original thread on this topic, it doesn't look too fruitful. Perhaps it is to be expected since we don't have direct evidence, but it seems that every case has some complicating factor that prevents the conclusion that Marcion's Gospel definitely had elements that exist in Matthew but not Luke. Does that about sum things up?
Every single possible instance is controversial, yes. Some of the instances are also complicated by manuscript harmonization between Matthew and Luke; in other words, there are some manuscripts of Luke which contain elements brought in by the scribes from Matthew, and Tertullian seems to be working with one of those manuscripts at times.

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