Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
I believe Stephan Huller has enumerated passages from Tertullian's quoting of Marcion's Gospel that are not found in Luke, but rather are found in Mark or Matthew.rgprice wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:41 am Are there such things? The proposition of Klinghardt is that Matthew is derived from Mark and Marcion, and Luke is derived from Matthew, Mark and Marcion. If this is the case, I would expect to see cases of agreement between Matthew and Marcion against Luke. Does any such thing exist?
Complicated issue. You can look here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1757. Some of these examples have been debunked (Matthew 5.17, for example, which is based upon a misunderstanding of Tertullian).rgprice wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:41 am Are there such things? The proposition of Klinghardt is that Matthew is derived from Mark and Marcion, and Luke is derived from Matthew, Mark and Marcion. If this is the case, I would expect to see cases of agreement between Matthew and Marcion against Luke. Does any such thing exist?
Matthew 12:
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Luke 8:
19 Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”
21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Details can be found in the link Ben provided above.Marcion:
19 ... 20 Some people told him, “Your mother and your brothers stand outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, "Who is my mother and who are my brothers except these who hear my words and do them?”
To complicate matters, it's an agreement between Marcion and Matthew *and Mark* [Mark 3.31] against Luke, for Mark has the question as well. Moreover Mark and Matthew agree in placing the pericope about Jesus' true relative after the Beelzebul pericope (where Jesus' True Relatives is the second half of the interrupted story begun in Mark 3.19-22, into which Beelzebul has been intercalated), which Marcion and Luke do not.rgprice wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:57 am This would seem to be an agreement between Marcion and Matthew against Luke. A possible explanation is that this text was in Marcion, Matthew copied it from Marcion, but Luke did not. Another would be that Marcion copied this text from Matthew (which seems a bit more unlikely).
It would be very difficult to explain this issue on the basis of Marcion having redacted Luke, since this passage doesn't exist in Luke.
You are correct Ken. If we assume that there never was any version of Luke with the question, then it would be more reasonable to assume that Matthew is following Mark. Yet, if Luke doesn't have the question, then it would still be true that Marcion couldn't be a redaction of Luke.Ken Olson wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:26 am To complicate matters, it's an agreement between Marcion and Matthew *and Mark* [Mark 3.31] against Luke, for Mark has the question as well. Moreover Mark and Matthew agree in placing the pericope about Jesus' true relative after the Beelzebul pericope (where Jesus' True Relatives is the second half of the interrupted story begun in Mark 3.19-22, into which Beelzebul has been intercalated), which Marcion and Luke do not.
It would seem reasonable to suggest that Matthew is following Mark, not Marcion, here.
Why do you consider the theory that Marcion knew Matthew less likely than the reverse?
BeDuhn suggests, based on Tertullian's On the Flesh of Christ 7, that Tertullian's copy of Luke had the question "Who are my mothers and brothers" in it (First New Testament, 146).
Best,
Ken
Marcion's rendition of the passage can be explained as follows:Matthew 12:
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Luke 8:
19 Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”
21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Marcion:
19 ... 20 Some people told him, “Your mother and your brothers stand outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, "Who is my mother and who are my brothers except these who hear my words and do them?”
Every single possible instance is controversial, yes. Some of the instances are also complicated by manuscript harmonization between Matthew and Luke; in other words, there are some manuscripts of Luke which contain elements brought in by the scribes from Matthew, and Tertullian seems to be working with one of those manuscripts at times.rgprice wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:16 am From reading through Ben's original thread on this topic, it doesn't look too fruitful. Perhaps it is to be expected since we don't have direct evidence, but it seems that every case has some complicating factor that prevents the conclusion that Marcion's Gospel definitely had elements that exist in Matthew but not Luke. Does that about sum things up?