The peculiar case of the two masters

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by Ben C. Smith »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:20 pmBen, it is my goal to analyse and draw conclusions based on textual evidence, in order to get closer to unravelling exactly how Christianity was created.
What you are saying in this thread is not only moving away from that, but in the opposite direction
Every single word I have written on this thread has been in response either to a statement or even to a question of yours. And every single word has also been written in the service of trying to figure out how early Christianity came to be. That you do not appreciate the results is of no relevance to that cause. You are certainly allowed to disagree with me. Heck, in a few months there is a decent chance that I myself will disagree with me.
I am handing you text and remarkable verbatim agreement....
Again, the "remarkable verbatim agreement" does not apply to precisely the two potential instances of the saying which I am speaking of.
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

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A more detailed dissection of the relevant texts:

Mark 2:21 Οὐδεὶς (No one) ἐπίβλημα (a patch) ῥάκους (of cloth) ἀγνάφου (unshrunk) ἐπιράπτει (sews) ἐπὶ (on) ἱμάτιον (clothing) παλαιόν (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή (not) αἴρει (tears away) τὸ (the) πλήρωμα (patch) ἀπ’ (from) αὐτοῦ (it), τὸ (-) καινὸν (new) τοῦ (from the) παλαιοῦ (old), καὶ (And) χεῖρον (worse) σχίσμα (a tear) γίνεται (takes place).
22 Καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) βάλλει (puts) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή (not), ῥήξει (will burst) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) τοὺς (the) ἀσκούς (wineskins), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ἀπόλλυται (will be destroyed), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοί (wineskins). ἀλλὰ (Instead), οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινούς (new).”


Matthew 9:16 Οὐδεὶς (No one) δὲ (however) ἐπιβάλλει (puts) ἐπίβλημα (a patch) ῥάκους (of cloth) ἀγνάφου (unshrunk) ἐπὶ (on) ἱματίῳ (clothing) παλαιῷ (old); αἴρει (tears away) γὰρ (for) τὸ (the) πλήρωμα (patch) αὐτοῦ (of it) ἀπὸ (from) τοῦ (the) ἱματίου (garment), καὶ (and) χεῖρον (a worse) σχίσμα (tear) γίνεται (emerges).
17 Οὐδὲ (Nor) βάλλουσιν (pour they) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή¦γε (lest) ῥήγνυνται (are burst) οἱ (the) ἀσκοί (wineskins), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ἐκχεῖται (is poured out), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοὶ (wineskins) ἀπόλλυνται (are destroyed). ἀλλὰ (But) βάλλουσιν (they pour) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινούς (new), καὶ (and) ἀμφότεροι (both) συντηροῦνται (are preserved).”

Bold and italic denote the same, they're just different so the parts are smaller and easier to compare.
The purple is an addition by Matthew

What is not emphasised is particular to either Mark or Matthew, the remainder is verbatim agreement.
Either Mark copied Matthew here or the other way around, and while Mark's Greek is cringing such is generally the case so it won't serve as an argument here.
Mark's overexplaining such as τὸ (-) καινὸν (new) τοῦ (from the) παλαιοῦ (old) is likewise noted, and likewise it's typical for Mark, and likewise it doesn't attest to anything particular for this logion.
Are there textual elements that give away priority here? Matthew using ἐπιβάλλει for the patch / cloth is odd and reminiscent of the βάλλει he uses for the wine / skins, which is equally odd as the verb literally means 'to cast, throw' yet it's the favourite verb of our Romans with hundreds of occurrences all over the NT

Luke will be next:
Luke 5:36 Ἔλεγεν (He was speaking) δὲ (now) καὶ (also) παραβολὴν (a parable) πρὸς (to) αὐτοὺς (them) ὅτι (-): “Οὐδεὶς (No one) ἐπίβλημα (a piece) ἀπὸ (of) ἱματίου (a garment) καινοῦ (new) σχίσας (having torn), ἐπιβάλλει (puts it) ἐπὶ (on) ἱμάτιον (a garment) παλαιόν (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (however) μή¦γε (otherwise) καὶ (also) τὸ (the) καινὸν (new) σχίσει (he will tear), καὶ (and) τῷ (the) παλαιῷ (old) οὐ (not) συμφωνήσει (will match), τὸ (which is) ἐπίβλημα (the piece) τὸ (-) ἀπὸ (of) τοῦ (the) καινοῦ (new). 37 Καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) βάλλει (puts) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή¦γε (otherwise), ῥήξει (will burst) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ὁ (-) νέος (new) τοὺς (the) ἀσκούς (wineskins), καὶ (and) αὐτὸς (it) ἐκχυθήσεται (will be spilled out), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοὶ (wineskins) ἀπολοῦνται (will be destroyed). 38 ἀλλὰ (But) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινοὺς (fresh) βλητέον (must be put). 39 καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) πιὼν (having drunk) παλαιὸν (old wine) θέλει (desires) νέον (new); λέγει (he says) γάρ (for), ‘Ὁ (The) παλαιὸς (old) χρηστός (better) ἐστιν (is).’”
But for now, it seems blatantly evident that the above two fragments are copies of one another (or of a different and identical text, sure)
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

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Mark 2:21 Οὐδεὶς (No one) ἐπίβλημα (a patch) ῥάκους (of cloth) ἀγνάφου (unshrunk) ἐπιράπτει (sews) ἐπὶ (on) ἱμάτιον (clothing) παλαιόν (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή (not) αἴρει (tears away) τὸ (the) πλήρωμα (patch) ἀπ’ (from) αὐτοῦ (it), τὸ (-) καινὸν (new) τοῦ (from the) παλαιοῦ (old), καὶ (And) χεῖρον (worse) σχίσμα (a tear) γίνεται (takes place).
22 Καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) βάλλει (puts) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή (not), ῥήξει (will burst) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) τοὺς (the) ἀσκούς (wineskins), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ἀπόλλυται (will be destroyed), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοί (wineskins). ἀλλὰ (Instead), οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινούς (new).”


Matthew 9:16 Οὐδεὶς (No one) δὲ (however) ἐπιβάλλει (puts) ἐπίβλημα (a patch) ῥάκους (of cloth) ἀγνάφου (unshrunk) ἐπὶ (on) ἱματίῳ (clothing) παλαιῷ (old); αἴρει (tears away) γὰρ (for) τὸ (the) πλήρωμα (patch) αὐτοῦ (of it) ἀπὸ (from) τοῦ (the) ἱματίου (garment), καὶ (and) χεῖρον (a worse) σχίσμα (tear) γίνεται (emerges).
17 Οὐδὲ (Nor) βάλλουσιν (pour they) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή¦γε (lest) ῥήγνυνται (are burst) οἱ (the) ἀσκοί (wineskins), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ἐκχεῖται (is poured out), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοὶ (wineskins) ἀπόλλυνται (are destroyed). ἀλλὰ (But) βάλλουσιν (they pour) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινούς (new), καὶ (and) ἀμφότεροι (both) συντηροῦνται (are preserved).”

White is irrelevant, green is Mark, red is Matthew, underlined is uniquely Lukan, italic is verbatim yet adjusted for syntax, plain is shared with Mark and Matthew

Luke 5:36 Ἔλεγεν (He was speaking) δὲ (now) καὶ (also) παραβολὴν (a parable) πρὸς (to) αὐτοὺς (them) ὅτι (-): “Οὐδεὶς (No one) ἐπίβλημα (a piece) ἀπὸ (of) ἱματίου (a garment) καινοῦ (new) σχίσας (having torn), ἐπιβάλλει (puts it) ἐπὶ (on) ἱμάτιον (a garment) παλαιόν (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (however) μή¦γε (otherwise) καὶ (also) τὸ (the) καινὸν (new) σχίσει (he will tear), καὶ (and) τῷ (the) παλαιῷ (old) οὐ (not) συμφωνήσει (will match), τὸ (which is) ἐπίβλημα (the piece) τὸ (-) ἀπὸ (of) τοῦ (the) καινοῦ (new).
37 Καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) βάλλει (puts) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή¦γε (otherwise), ῥήξει (will burst) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ὁ (-) νέος (new) τοὺς (the) ἀσκούς (wineskins), καὶ (and) αὐτὸς (it) ἐκχυθήσεται (will be spilled out), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοὶ (wineskins) ἀπολοῦνται (will be destroyed).
38 ἀλλὰ (But) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινοὺς (fresh) βλητέον (must be put).
39 καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) πιὼν (having drunk) παλαιὸν (old wine) θέλει (desires) νέον (new); λέγει (he says) γάρ (for), ‘Ὁ (The) παλαιὸς (old) χρηστός (better) ἐστιν (is).’”

It is most likely that Mark copied Luke and that Matthew copied Mark with one eyeball on Luke - the only other explanation would be that Luke wrote his own story while also pulling verbatim from Mark as well as Matthew

What is of interest however are the two words that both denote 'new': νέος and καινος. Mark and Matthew use them both for the patch, cloth, wine and wineskins yet Luke uses only καινος for the patch and cloth. And that is pivotal when we get to Thomas.
But first, and next up: we'll look at all the variants as registered by NA28 - that's still better than nothing although far from reliable

Do know that χρηστός means good, not better - yet there are variants that indeed say better, and I suspect this to be half a change in this version of Berean. But as the age old adage goes: put your faith in the devil before you put your trust in a bible translation
Last edited by mlinssen on Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the two masters

Post by mlinssen »

Including the variants going by NA28, yellow highlight indicates a variant, orange highlight denotes one that is omitted in at least one MS

Mark 2:21 Οὐδεὶς (No one) ἐπίβλημα (a patch) ῥάκους (of cloth) ἀγνάφου (unshrunk) ἐπιράπτει (sews) ἐπὶ (on) ἱμάτιον (clothing) παλαιόν (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή (not) αἴρει (tears away) τὸ (the) πλήρωμα (patch) ἀπ’ (from) αὐτοῦ (it), τὸ (-) καινὸν (new) τοῦ (from the) παλαιοῦ (old), καὶ (And) χεῖρον (worse) σχίσμα (a tear) γίνεται (takes place).
22 Καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) βάλλει (puts) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή (not), ῥήξει (will burst) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) τοὺς (the) ἀσκούς (wineskins), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ἀπόλλυται (will be destroyed), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοί (wineskins). ἀλλὰ (Instead), οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινούς (new).”


Matthew 9:16 Οὐδεὶς (No one) δὲ (however) ἐπιβάλλει (puts) ἐπίβλημα (a patch) ῥάκους (of cloth) ἀγνάφου (unshrunk) ἐπὶ (on) ἱματίῳ (clothing) παλαιῷ (old); αἴρει (tears away) γὰρ (for) τὸ (the) πλήρωμα (patch) αὐτοῦ (of it) ἀπὸ (from) τοῦ (the) ἱματίου (garment), καὶ (and) χεῖρον (a worse) σχίσμα (tear) γίνεται (emerges).
17 Οὐδὲ (Nor) βάλλουσιν (pour they) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή¦γε (lest) ῥήγνυνται (are burst) οἱ (the) ἀσκοί (wineskins), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ἐκχεῖται (is poured out), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοὶ (wineskins) ἀπόλλυνται (are destroyed). ἀλλὰ (But) βάλλουσιν (they pour) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινούς (new), καὶ (and) ἀμφότεροι (both) συντηροῦνται (are preserved).”

White is irrelevant, green is Mark, red is Matthew, underlined is uniquely Lukan, italic is verbatim yet adjusted for syntax, plain is shared with Mark and Matthew

Luke 5:36 Ἔλεγεν (He was speaking) δὲ (now) καὶ (also) παραβολὴν (a parable) πρὸς (to) αὐτοὺς (them) ὅτι (-): “Οὐδεὶς (No one) ἐπίβλημα (a piece) ἀπὸ (of) ἱματίου (a garment) καινοῦ (new) σχίσας (having torn), ἐπιβάλλει (puts it) ἐπὶ (on) ἱμάτιον (a garment) παλαιόν (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (however) μή¦γε (otherwise) καὶ (also) τὸ (the) καινὸν (new) σχίσει (he will tear), καὶ (and) τῷ (the) παλαιῷ (old) οὐ (not) συμφωνήσει (will match), τὸ (which is) ἐπίβλημα (the piece) τὸ (-) ἀπὸ (of) τοῦ (the) καινοῦ (new).
37 Καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) βάλλει (puts) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) παλαιούς (old); εἰ (if) δὲ (now) μή¦γε (otherwise), ῥήξει (will burst) ὁ (the) οἶνος (wine) ὁ (-) νέος (new) τοὺς (the) ἀσκούς (wineskins), καὶ (and) αὐτὸς (it) ἐκχυθήσεται (will be spilled out), καὶ (and) οἱ (the) ἀσκοὶ (wineskins) ἀπολοῦνται (will be destroyed).
38 ἀλλὰ (But) οἶνον (wine) νέον (new) εἰς (into) ἀσκοὺς (wineskins) καινοὺς (fresh) βλητέον (must be put).
39 καὶ (And) οὐδεὶς (no one) πιὼν (having drunk) παλαιὸν (old wine) θέλει (desires) νέον (new); λέγει (he says) γάρ (for), ‘Ὁ (The) παλαιὸς (old) χρηστός (better) ἐστιν (is).

As usual, omissions occur in Bezae, the Italian tradition and Bohairic. I'm not going into details now, but save that for later. Or rather, last.
Next up: Klinghardt's reconstruction of *Ev
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