Examples where Matthew is more primitive than Luke?

[rgprice]

In Q theory I hear a lot about "alternating primitivity" but can hardly find any examples of Matthew being more "primitive" than, its always the other way around. Anyone know of several good examples?

[Ben C. Smith]

In Q theory I hear a lot about "alternating primitivity" but can hardly find any examples of Matthew being more "primitive" than, its always the other way around. Anyone know of several good examples?

Goodacre makes a case for Luke becoming fatigued with Matthew at several points in his famous article on the topic.

[Secret Alias]

The Antitheses. If there was a historical Jesus he had to have said something or stood for something which accounted for the Jews wanting to kill him so badly. Jesus as the spokesman for antinomianism fits the bill.

[Bernard Muller]

The Antitheses. If there was a historical Jesus he had to have said something or stood for something which accounted for the Jews wanting to kill him so badly. Jesus as the spokesman for antinomianism fits the bill.

Chief priests and Romans in Jerusalem would send Jesus to a cross as a deterrent for Jews acclaiming (and believing) Jesus as a future King AND Jesus' disturbance in the Temple.

How did a humble low-class Galilean got to be believed becoming the King?
Read http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html "historical Jesus" in a few words

Cordially, Bernard

[Secret Alias]

Chief priests and Romans in Jerusalem would send Jesus to a cross as a deterrent for Jews acclaiming (and believing) Jesus as a future King

What's the legal basis to your assertion? Where in the Torah does it say you have to kill people that want to be king? Your point isn't based on any facts. Based on click bait. If you want to say that the priesthood MIGHT HAVE WANTED to kill him because they were corrupt, possibly. But this is not factual it's a supposition. Jesus uttering the antinomian statements found in the Antitheses are more convincing. One, the Marcionites held that this was the reason he was killed. Two, the rabbinic sources said that this is the reason he was killed. And I have no click bait to offer. Only facts and witnesses.

[Bernard Muller]

About the two main examples of fatigue on Q material by Mark Goodacre:

True, "Matthew" is more logical and elegant about the missionary directives in 10:11-14 than "Luke in 9:4-6. However if a fatigued "Luke" knew about that passage in gMatthew, the best way in that case would be for her to stay very close to gMatthew rather than do some rewriting.

About the parable of the talents/pounds, Goodacre built his argument around "amazingly, 'the other', o eteroV (19.20)". But 'o' can also be translated by "this" such as "this other", not necessarily the third servant, but any of the eight left to report.
In all the twelve bible translations I consulted, I read "another".

I think Goodacre has some very weak arguments in order to demonstrate "Luke" knew about gMatthew content.

One argument showing "Luke" knowing about Q but not gMatthew.

gLuke does not have the so-called Bethsaida mini gospel except "Luke' knew about this in it:
Mk8:15 "take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod." in the missing block reappears in Lk12:1b ("Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy") and Mt16:6,11 ("beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.").
"Luke" did not get any Bethsaida mini gospel, which is included in gMatthew (14:24-16:13a) and gMark (6:47-8:27a), but had the leaven saying regardless: from where? Obviously not from gMark or gMatthew but from a separate Q document.

Note: the greek word for "beware" is the same in Gluke & gMatthew ('prosechō') but different in gMark ('blepō'). However, "Luke" in 29:46 replaced 'blepō' by 'prosechō' for the corresponding gMark verse 12:28, meaning "Luke" was not always keeping the exact word she found in gMark.
Also, I presume 'prosechō' might be an appropriate word for "take heed, beware".

I have other arguments about"Luke" knowing about Q but not gMatthew.

Cordially, Bernard

[hakeem]

Chief priests and Romans in Jerusalem would send Jesus to a cross as a deterrent for Jews acclaiming (and believing) Jesus as a future King

What's the legal basis to your assertion? Where in the Torah does it say you have to kill people that want to be king? Your point isn't based on any facts. Based on click bait. If you want to say that the priesthood MIGHT HAVE WANTED to kill him because they were corrupt, possibly. But this is not factual it's a supposition. Jesus uttering the antinomian statements found in the Antitheses are more convincing. One, the Marcionites held that this was the reason he was killed. Two, the rabbinic sources said that this is the reason he was killed. And I have no click bait to offer. Only facts and witnesses.

Antiquities of the Jews 17.10.6

. There was also Simon, who had been a slave of Herod the king, but in other respects a comely person, of a tall and robust body; he was one that was much superior to others of his order, and had had great things committed to his care. This man was elevated at the disorderly state of things, and was so bold as to put a diadem on his head, while a certain number of the people stood by him, and by them he was declared to be a king, and thought himself more worthy of that dignity than any one else. He burnt down the royal palace at Jericho, and plundered what was left in it. He also set fire to many other of the king's houses in several places of the country, and utterly destroyed them, and permitted those that were with him to take what was left in them for a prey; and he would have done greater things, unless care had been taken to repress him immediately; for Gratus, when he had joined himself to some Roman soldiers, took the forces he had with him, and met Simon, and after a great and a long fight, no small part of those that came from Perea, who were a disordered body of men, and fought rather in a bold than in a skillful manner, were destroyed; and although Simon had saved himself by flying away through a certain valley, yet Gratus overtook him, and cut off his head.

[Secret Alias]

But that's not Jewish law. What would that have to do with 'the chief priests'? What legal basis would there be for the priests to condemn Jesus?

[Bernard Muller]

to Secret Alias,

What's the legal basis to your assertion? Where in the Torah does it say you have to kill people that want to be king?

The king thing was mostly of concern for the Romans. Letting some Jews believing Jesus would become the king could be dangerous for them if that would become a huge movement. The deterent was: if you think one will become king over our rule, this is what will happen to that one.

If you want to say that the priesthood MIGHT HAVE WANTED to kill him because they were corrupt, possibly.

The priests would be very concerned about Jesus making trouble in the temple. If not punished, others might do the same.
The welcoming as King would not have been enough a cause for arrest, but combined with the disturbance, both chief priests and Romans would conclude Jesus' execution was warranted.
In gMark, I concluded "Mark" was eager to downplay (actually ignored) the disturbance as a cause for Jesus' arrest, as also Jesus believed to become an earthly king.
http://historical-jesus.info/87.html about the disturbance
http://historical-jesus.info/29.htm about King.

And I think "Luke" got what follows by companions of Paul from the "saints" when they were in Jerusalem:
"he [Jesus] was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once." (Lk19:11b)

But this is not factual it's a supposition. Jesus uttering the antinomian statements found in the Antitheses are more convincing. One, the Marcionites held that this was the reason he was killed. Two, the rabbinic sources said that this is the reason he was killed. And I have no click bait to offer. Only facts and witnesses.

I am certain gMark was written soon after the events of 70, and gLuke & gMatthew written later, but still in the 1st century.
So Marcion & the Marcionites came later in the second century. So their opinions about why Jesus was killed were probably not "historical" because too much removed in time.

Regardless, I am interested about what the antinomian statements that Jesus would utter.
What are they?

Cordially, Bernard

[mlinssen]

In Q theory I hear a lot about "alternating primitivity" but can hardly find any examples of Matthew being more "primitive" than, its always the other way around. Anyone know of several good examples?

All I can think of is instances where it is unclear that Matthew came after Luke.
This is all from my 72 logia, shitty WEB translation - Berean Literal will be a lot better but I'm on mobile here.
The Thomas translation is Lambdin, equally shitty and subjective - and biased by a Christian viewpoint

(9a) Jesus said, "Now the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered them.
(9b) Some fell on the road; the birds came and gathered them up.
(9c) Others fell on the rock, did not take root in the soil, and did not produce ears.
(9d) And others fell on thorns; they choked the seed(s) and worms ate them.
(9e) And others fell on the good soil and it produced good fruit: it bore sixty per measure and a hundred and twenty per measure."

Mark 4:2 He taught them many things in parables, and told them in his teaching, 3 "Listen!
Behold, the farmer went out to sow, 4 and as he sowed, some seed fell by the road, and the birds came and devoured it. 5 Others fell on the rocky ground, where it had little soil, and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of soil. 6 When the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 Others fell into the good ground, and yielded fruit, growing up and increasing. Some produced thirty times, some sixty times, and some one hundred times as much." 9 He said, "Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

Luke 8:4 When a great multitude came together, and people from every city were coming to him, he spoke by a parable. 5 "The farmer went out to sow his seed. As he sowed, some fell along the road, and it was trampled under foot, and the birds of the sky devoured it. 6 Other seed fell on the rock, and as soon as it grew, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 Other fell amid the thorns, and the thorns grew with it, and choked it. 8 Other fell into the good ground, and grew, and produced one hundred times as much fruit." As he said these things, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Matthew 13:3 He spoke to them many things in parables, saying, "Behold, a farmer went out to sow. 4 As he sowed, some seeds fell by the roadside, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Others fell on rocky ground, where they didn't have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of earth. 6 When the sun had risen, they were scorched. Because they had no root, they withered away. 7 Others fell among thorns. The thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Others fell on good soil and yielded fruit: some one hundred times as much, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

(41) Jesus said, "Whoever has something in his hand will receive more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little he has."

Mark 4:24 He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you, and more will be given to you who hear. 25 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he who doesn't have, even that which he has will be taken away from him."

Luke 8:18 Be careful therefore how you hear. For whoever has, to him will be given; and whoever doesn't have, from him will be taken away even that which he thinks he has." 19:26 'For I tell you that to everyone who has, will more be given; but from him who doesn't have, even that which he has will be taken away from him.

Matthew 13:12 For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever doesn't have, from him will be taken away even that which he has.
(...)
Matthew 25:29 For to everyone who has will be given, and he will have abundance, but from him who doesn't have, even that which he has will be taken away.

(86) Jesus said, "The foxes have their holes and the birds have their nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head and rest."

Luke 9:58 Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." 59 He said to another, "Follow me!" But he said, "Lord, allow me first to go and bury my father." 60 But Jesus said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead, but you go and announce God's Kingdom."

Matthew 8:20 Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." 21 Another of his disciples said to him, "Lord, allow me first to go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

(25) Jesus said, "Love your brother like your soul, guard him like the pupil of your eye."

Mark 12:28 One of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the greatest of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The greatest is, 'Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one: 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 31 The second is like this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Luke 10:25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" 27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live." 29 But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"

Matthew 22:35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him. 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

(92a) Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.
(92b) Yet, what you asked me about in former times and which I did not tell you then, now I do desire to tell, but you do not inquire after it."
(94) Jesus said, "He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in."

Luke 11:9 "I tell you, keep asking, and it will be given you. Keep seeking, and you will find. Keep knocking, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.

(35) Jesus said, "It is not possible for anyone to enter the house of a strong man and take it by force unless he binds his hands; then he will (be able to) ransack his house." (21e) Therefore I say, if the owner of a house knows that the thief is coming, he will begin his vigil before he comes and will not let him dig through into his house of his domain to carry away his goods.
(21f) You, then, be on your guard against the world.
(21g) Arm yourselves with great strength lest the robbers find a way to come to you, for the difficulty which you expect will (surely) materialize.

Mark 3:27 But no one can enter into the house of the strong man to plunder unless he first binds the strong man; then he will plunder his house.

Luke11:21 "When the strong man, fully armed, guards his own dwelling, his goods are safe. 22 But when someone stronger attacks him and overcomes him, he takes from him his whole armor in which he trusted, and divides his plunder.

Matthew 12:29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man and plunder his goods, unless he first bind the strong man? Then he will plunder his house.

Oxyrhynchus for Thomas, where the second half is extra, compared to the Coptic:

(36) [Jesus said, “Do not be concerned] from morning [until evening and] from evening [until] morning, neither [about] your [food] and what [you will] eat, [nor] about [your clothing] and what you [will] wear. [You are far] better than the [lilies] which [neither] card nor [spin]. As for you, when you have no garment, what [will you put on]? Who might add to your stature? He it is who will give you your cloak.”

Luke 12:25 Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? 26 If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith?

Matthew 6:27 "Which of you by being anxious, can add one moment to his lifespan? 28 Why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin, 29 yet I tell you that even Solomon in all his glory was not dressed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today exists and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, won't he much more clothe you, you of little faith?

The infamous parable of the colostrum. We're back at the Coptic. I just changed the word in Lambdin here, oopsy

(96a) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a certain woman.
(96b) She took a little colostrum, concealed it in some dough, and made it into large loaves.
(96c) Let him who has ears hear."

Luke 13:20 Again he said, "To what shall I compare God's Kingdom? 21 It is like yeast, which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened."

Matthew 13:33 He spoke another parable to them. "The Kingdom of Heaven is like yeast which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until it was all leavened."

Check out Luke 14:16-24 versus Matthew 22:2-14 for yourself; they both vary so wildly that it could be anything.
Continuing the list:

(11a) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.
(11b) The dead are not alive, and the living will not die.
(11c) In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive.
(11d) When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do?
(11e) On the day when you were one you became two.
(11f) But when you become two, what will you do?"

Mark 13:30 Most certainly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things happen. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the law to fall.

These verses Matthew copies in 5:18, but Luke also has a fuller version further on, which Matthew also follows up on:

Luke 21:32 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 34 "So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly.

Matthew 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.
(...)
24:34 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 36 "But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

(79a) A woman from the crowd said to him, "Blessed are the womb which bore you and the breasts which nourished you." (79b) He said to her, "Blessed are those who have heard the word of the father and have truly kept it.
(79c) For there will be days when you will say, 'Blessed are the womb which has not conceived and the breasts which have not given milk.'"

Mark 13:15 and let him who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, to take anything out of his house. 16 Let him who is in the field not return back to take his cloak. 17 But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babies in those days!

Luke 17:31 In that day, he who will be on the housetop and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away. Let him who is in the field likewise not turn back.
21:23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who nurse infants in those days! For there will be great distress in the land, and wrath to this people.

Matthew 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take out the things that are in his house. 18 Let him who is in the field not return back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are with child and to nursing mothers in those days!

(22a) Jesus saw infants being suckled.
(22b) He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom." (22c) They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?" (22d) Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said to them, "Allow the little children to come to me! Don't forbid them, for God's Kingdom belongs to such as these. 15 Most certainly I tell you, whoever will not receive God's Kingdom like a little child, he will in no way enter into it."

Luke 18:16 Jesus summoned them, saying, "Allow the little children to come to me, and don't hinder them, for God's Kingdom belongs to such as these. 17 Most certainly, I tell you, whoever doesn't receive God's Kingdom like a little child, he will in no way enter into it."

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to ones like these." 15 He laid his hands on them, and departed from there.

That's all I have, and the core of the matter is that when the Thomas copies amount to just a few words it is hard to tell. An exception to that rule is where they create an ocean of words and vary greatly from one another.
But the order is clear throughout: Luke, then Matthew.
Thomas is the triangulation point for the order of the gospels, whether you like my theory or not. I don't even like it myself and wish it weren't so, so I could just continue with my Commentary