who invented the name Jesus?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
hakeem
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

Post by hakeem »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:56 pm
hakeem wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:57 pm the name Jesus or the NT Jesus character's name was derived from the works of Josephus.
yeah, Nah. Aspects of the narrative about the NT character Iesous might have been motivated by or borrowed from accounts of Iesous characters in the works of Josephus, but not the name itself.

Iesous was a common name but it was also the Greek transliteration of the name of a revered Jewish leader, Y'hosua/Y'shua/Yeshu'a, the successor to Moses, and also said to have been a major prophet. A name and character the likes of Philo had revered in the early first century AD/CE
The works of Philo, a Jew, which consist of over 40 books do not mention any character called Jesus.

Philo revered only the God Creator of the Jews--not men. There is also no prophet recorded by Jewish writers identified as Jesus of Nazareth.

Philo's On Embassy to Gaius XVI
.....for it would have been easier to change a god into man, than a man into God[/b,



Philo and the Jews did not worship men as Gods and it was for that very reason why he went to Rome to represent the Jews to the Emperor Gaius who was revered as a God except by Jews.

Philo's On Embassy to GaiusXVI.

(114) Have we not, then, learned from all these instances, that Gaius ought not to be likened to any god, and not even to any demi-god, inasmuch as he has neither the same nature, nor the same essence, nor even the same wishes and intentions as any one of them.



It is simply implausible that Philo would represent the Jews against the Emperor Gaius to argue that men should not be worshiped as Gods while he himself a Jew was presently worshiping men as Gods.
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MrMacSon
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

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hakeem wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:35 pm The works of Philo, a Jew, which consist of over 40 books do not mention any character called Jesus.
Philo revered only the God Creator of the Jews--not men.
Philo philosophized about many aspects of Judaism. He, as you would know, wrote tens or hundreds of thousands of words (if not millions) about aspects of Judaism, including Genesis and various other works.

He did write about an/a Iesous/Jesus (just not the NT one), viz., -

Philo, On the Change of Names 121-122a (Yonge version) –

"…Moses also changes the name of Hosea into that of [in Philo, the Greek:] Iesous [Y'hosua/Yeshu'a]; displaying by his new name the distinctive qualities of his character; for the name Hosea is interpreted, “what sort of a person is this?” but Iesous means “the salvation of the Lord,” being the name of the most excellent possible character…"

Philo alluded to what is considered to be the same Iesous in the book of Zechariah in his On the Confusion of Tongues/Languages 62-63 -

I have also heard of one of the companions of Moses having uttered such a speech as this: "Behold, a man whose name is Anatole [Rising/the East]!" {Zech 6:12.}. A very novel appellation indeed, if you consider it as spoken of a man who is compounded of body and soul; but if you look upon it as applied to that incorporeal being who in no respect differs from the divine image, you will then agree that the name of Anatole [Rising/the East] has been given to him with great felicity. (63) For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns.

Philo also elevated or even glorified the Logos, the Word

[eta] On the Confusion of Tongues/Languages 146

And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Logos [the Word], and man according to God's image, and he who sees Israel.

Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

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MrMacSon wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:58 pm
Philo, On the Change of Names 121-122a (Yonge version) –

"…Moses also changes the name of Hosea into that of [in Philo, the Greek:] Iesous [Y'hosua/Yeshu'a]; displaying by his new name the distinctive qualities of his character; for the name Hosea is interpreted, “what sort of a person is this?” but Iesous means “the salvation of the Lord,” being the name of the most excellent possible character…"

Philo alluded to what is considered to be the same Iesous in the book of Zechariah in his On the Confusion of Tongues/Languages 62-63 -

I have also heard of one of the companions of Moses having uttered such a speech as this: "Behold, a man whose name is Anatole [Rising/the East]!" {Zech 6:12.}. A very novel appellation indeed, if you consider it as spoken of a man who is compounded of body and soul; but if you look upon it as applied to that incorporeal being who in no respect differs from the divine image, you will then agree that the name of Anatole [Rising/the East] has been given to him with great felicity. (63) For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns.

Philo also elevated or even glorified the Logos, the Word

[eta] On the Confusion of Tongues/Languages 146

And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Logos [the Word], and man according to God's image, and he who sees Israel.

The author of the Epistle of Barnabas followed suit -

Barnabas 12:8-10 (Holmes version)

(8) Again, what does Moses say to Iesous the son of Nun when he gave him this name, since he was a prophet, for the sole purpose that all the people might hear that the Father was revealing everything about his Son Iesous? (9) Moses said to Iesous the son of Nun, when he gave him this name as he sent him to spy out the land, “Take a book in your hands and write what the Lord says, that in the last days the Son of God will cut off by its roots all the house of Amalek.” (10) Observe again that it is Iesous, not a son of a man but the Son of God, and revealed in the flesh by a symbol.

- following Exodus 17:8-9a LXX (NETS) –

“Then Amalek came and was fighting Israel at Raphidin. And Moyses said to Iesous, ‘Choose for yourself capable men, and go forth, and set up in battle array against Amalek tomorrow.’”

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MrMacSon
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

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fwiw,

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 3.49 (Whiston version)

So Moses sorted all that were fit for war into different troops, and set Iesous, the son of Nun, of the tribe of Ephraim, over them; one that was of great courage, and patient to undergo labors; of great abilities to understand, and to speak what was proper; and very serious in the worship of God; and indeed made, like another Moses, a teacher of piety towards God.

hakeem
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

Post by hakeem »

MrMacSon wrote: Philo philosophized about many aspects of Judaism. He, as you would know, wrote tens or hundreds of thousands of words (if not millions) about aspects of Judaism, including Genesis and various other works.

He did write about a Iesous/Jesus (just not the NT one), viz., -
Philo did not write about Jesus of Nazareth so could not have clamed he revered him.

We already know that in the book of Genesis and Job that it is claimed that there were sons of God so it is not unsual at all for Jews to mention sons of God without making any reference to Jesus of Nazareth.
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MrMacSon
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

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hakeem wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:49 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
  • Philo philosophized about many aspects of Judaism. He, as you would know, wrote tens or hundreds of thousands of words (if not millions) about aspects of Judaism, including Genesis and various other works.
  • He did write about an/a Iesous/Jesus (just not the NT one), viz., -
  • Philo did not write about Jesus of Nazareth so could not have clamed he revered him.
Umm -
MrMacSon wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:58 pm
He [ie. Philo] did write about an/a Iesous/Jesus (just not the NT one), viz., -

Philo, On the Change of Names 121-122a (Yonge version) –

"…Moses also changes the name of Hosea into that of [in Philo, the Greek:] Iesous [Y'hosua/Yeshu'a]; displaying by his new name the distinctive qualities of his character; for the name Hosea is interpreted, “what sort of a person is this?” but Iesous means “the salvation of the Lord,” being the name of the most excellent possible character…"

hakeem
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

Post by hakeem »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:35 pm
hakeem wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:49 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
  • Philo philosophized about many aspects of Judaism. He, as you would know, wrote tens or hundreds of thousands of words (if not millions) about aspects of Judaism, including Genesis and various other works.
  • He did write about an/a Iesous/Jesus (just not the NT one), viz., -
  • Philo did not write about Jesus of Nazareth so could not have clamed he revered him.
Umm -
MrMacSon wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:58 pm
He [ie. Philo] did write about an/a Iesous/Jesus (just not the NT one), viz., -

Philo, On the Change of Names 121-122a (Yonge version) –

"…Moses also changes the name of Hosea into that of [in Philo, the Greek:] Iesous [Y'hosua/Yeshu'a]; displaying by his new name the distinctive qualities of his character; for the name Hosea is interpreted, “what sort of a person is this?” but Iesous means “the salvation of the Lord,” being the name of the most excellent possible character…"

You keep showing that Philo wrote nothing about Jesus of Nazareth so I don't know what you are trying to prove.
cora
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

Post by cora »

Can you not transliterate? Yoshua can only become Iosua. Yeshua (if it existed) becomes Iesua. The a stays.
Iesous can only come from Yeshu. Which is why the Talmud calls him Yeshu.
But that is not how it was done: Justin Martyr changed Isu into Iesous. I read recently an article in which it was shown how he did it. And then he said that it came from Iosua. Then the Septuagint was forged by the church and Iosua was changed into Iosous to make it look real. This was after 170.
This is what happened. So what are you going on about Philo who has nothing to do with it and who died at 50 and who was a philosopher, and not a forger? I suppose you understand every Iesous mentioned before is a forgery from after 200 when the catholic church started which had chosen the Iesous from Justin?
You are both totally in the wrong timeframe. In the beginning there was Isu (Paul, Marcion) and Justin changed it in Iesous which Irenaeus took over.
You obviously ignore Isu Chrestos. And you ignore me and my research. And other research because it has been found out. Paul started a religion with Isu Chrestos, in the west of Turkey. In Judea there was no new religion (of course). The name Jesus appeared only in 185. This religion has nothing to do with Judea or Gallilea, or with Jahweh for that matter. Paul is not a Jew.
Why don't you keep to the facts? Or research them yourself if you don't believe me.
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MrMacSon
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

Post by MrMacSon »

cora wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:36 pm So what are you going on about Philo who has nothing to do with it and who died at 50 and who was a philosopher, and not a forger?
I'm only going on about Philo b/c I'm arguing with hakeem.

But I think Philo was a significant forerunner to Christianity: his works were used by early Christians and authors. He is said to have influenced Paul (+/- other authors of epistles attributed to him), the author/s of the epistle to the Hebrews, and the author/s of the Gospel according to John (+/- other Johannine works).

cora wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:36 pm Can you not transliterate? Yoshua can only become Iosua. Yeshua (if it existed) becomes Iesua. The a stays.
Iesous can only come from Yeshu. Which is why the Talmud calls him Yeshu.
I can somewhat. I was aware of some of those transliterations but not their significance (other than Yeshu in [some versions (?) of] the Talmud)

cora wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:36 pm In the beginning there was Isu (Paul, Marcion) and Justin changed it in Iesous which Irenaeus took over.
You obviously ignore Isu Chrestos. And you ignore me and my research. And other research because it has been found out. Paul started a religion with Isu Chrestos, in the west of Turkey. In Judea there was no new religion (of course). The name Jesus appeared only in 185. This religion has nothing to do with Judea or Gallilea, or with Jahweh for that matter. Paul is not a Jew.
I wasn't aware of Isu Chrestos.

I wouldn't doubt Christianity started outside of Judea [and Galilee] and was just said to have started there.

I thin that what is now the west of Turkey -then Asia Minor- would be a likely place for it to have started.

cora wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:36 pm Justin Martyr changed Isu into Iesous. I read recently an article in which it was shown how he did it. And then he said that it came from Iosua.
Are you able to give us the title of the article or a link to it if it's online?

cora wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:36 pm Then the Septuagint was forged by the church and Iosua was changed into Iosous to make it look real. This was after 170.
This is what happened.
I presume you mean, 'Then the Septuagint was edited/interpolated by the church and Iosua was changed into Iesous ...' (?)
Bernard Muller
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Re: who invented the name Jesus?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
It is simply implausible that Philo would represent the Jews against the Emperor Gaius to argue that men should not be worshiped as Gods while he himself a Jew was presently worshiping men as Gods.
Where did you find Philo wanted to ARGUE in Rome that men should not be worshiped as gods? It is not in Embassy to Gaius XVI 114.
Philo and the Jews did not worship men as Gods and it was for that very reason why he went to Rome ...
Philo went to Rome for other matters.
he himself a Jew was presently worshiping men as Gods.
Your quote does not say that.

Cordially, Bernard
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