who invented the name Jesus?

[Ken Olson]

Thanks, Ben. So we have cases where we have abbreviations indicating the name Jesus where the name which is being abbreviated can be established independently of any presupposition of what the abbreviation stood for.

[Giuseppe]

Hai Giuseppe,
Nobody hated Jahweh, not Paul and not Marcion who even called him the just god

I disagree. Marcion hated YHWH.

So prof Sebastian Moll:

Marcion's dualism forms without a doubt the centre of his doctrine.
...
however, an extensive chronological overview of the sources' testimony will show that Marcion's original distinction was in fact between an evil and a good God, whereas the figure of the just God was only introduced by later generations of his followers.

(my bold)



But without quote them, it is sufficient to read the parable of the two trees in Luke, to realize that the evil tree (YHWH) makes evil fruits (the Torah). There is no redemption for YHWH, and if there was, it is only later judaization of Marcion (see Esnik, where the demiurge converts himself when he realizes the great bullshit done by him by killing Jesus).

[Ben C. Smith]

Thanks, Ben. So we have cases where we have abbreviations indicating the name Jesus where the name which is being abbreviated can be established independently of any presupposition of what the abbreviation stood for.

Exactly so. Not only that, but those cases in which the abbreviation can be independently verified are among our earliest cases. Chester Beatty VI is the earliest manuscript listed in Paap, for example, which actually has nomina sacra.

[Bernard Muller]

to Cora,

How does anyone dare to come with an inscription that reads CHRESTOS, which is translated by some idiot with Christ???????
I found that ISU was taken from a Marcionite writing.

χρηστός can also mean benevolent or gracious or kind. Also, χρηστός is normally an adjective, not a noun, but can be used as a noun regardless, such as goodness, kindness.
Jesus Goodness or ISU Goodness as a two parts name is ridiculous.

About ISU, our DCHindley wrote:

Christos = anointed. Chrestos = "good," or "useful." It was Dan Mahar, in the pdf of his English Translation of Marcion's Galatians, available from Detering's site, who said:

One such creative liberty is the name for the Marcionite Savior, "Isu Chrestos" - "Isu" derived on the designation of Syrian Marcionites, the spelling for "Chrestos" (= the Good one) derived from an ancient inscription to a Marcionite synagogue.
...
"Mahar's "Isu" is his own invention, as the word for Jesus had been abbreviated in the inscription. He thought that it would correspond to the Syriac name Isu, known from the 4th century work Dialogue on the true faith in God, usually ascribed to its main character, Adamantius, but the inscription is in Greek so it actually suggests no such thing. It would have to have been inscribed in Aramaic before I'd go for an interpretation like that.

Cordially, Bernard

[cora]

I have many times read about Marcion's visit to the church and every time I find the same: Marcion calling the jewish god the JUST god. Are they all wrong? This prof with his dualism, I don't know, I see no dualism. Gnosticism had one god, not two. This what the church (Irenaeus c.s.) makes of it. It is Irenaeus who says that Marcion has two gods, not Marcion himself. He only recognized the god of the jews as being there. If he thought Jahweh was evil, what was he then doing there in the Jahweh/OT church? This "against Marcion" still has not stopped? He did not hate Jahweh, the Jahweh-lovers from the church hated HIM. Because he came with an other god.
Luke comes only partly from Marcion. For the last time: Marcion did not write this, he inherited it from Paul. And Paul did not write this either, he got it some place else. Any parables come from those people.
Cora.

[Bernard Muller]

to Cora,

I have many times read about Marcion's visit to the church

Are you thinking about the church of Rome? And what & from where did you read specifically?

Marcion calling the jewish god the JUST god

This is not according to those who commented on him, such as : Irenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus of Rome.
Irenaeus stated in AH, book 1, XVII, 1
he [Marcion] advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself. But Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world

Yes this is dualism

Irenaeus who says that Marcion has two gods, not Marcion himself

So what did Marcion himself say ?

Oh, here is your (kind of) answer:

Marcion did not write this, he inherited it from Paul. And Paul did not write this either, he got it some place else.

Speculations, assumptions and NO evidence

Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

to Cora,

He did not hate Jahweh, the Jahweh-lovers from the church hated HIM.

How do you know it was Jahweh-lovers who hated Marcion, and not orthodox Christians?

Cordially, Bernard

[hakeem]

to Cora,

I have many times read about Marcion's visit to the church

Are you thinking about the church of Rome? And what & from where did you read specifically?

Marcion calling the jewish god the JUST god

This is not according to those who commented on him, such as : Irenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus of Rome.
Irenaeus stated in AH, book 1, XVII, 1
he [Marcion] advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself. But Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world

It is stated in Ephraem's "Against Marcion 1 that the Marcionites did claim the God of the Jews was the Just One.


Ehpraem's Against Marcion 1

The followers [of Marcion] therefore name our God 'the Just One'

In Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies --the Just God is the Evil one.

Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies

But Marcion, of Pontus, and Cerdon, his preceptor, themselves also lay down that there are three principles of the universe— good, just, and matter. Some disciples, however, of these add a fourth, saying, good, just, evil, and matter. But they all affirm that the good (Being) has made nothing at all though some denominate the just one likewise evil ......

[cora]

I read "some disciples" of these. That can be, especially from Egypt, where jewish Gnosticism existed before Marcion came. The gnostic god is NOT a creator god, but a "being" in the universe, a universal god for everybody (not obligated). He is there, he does not move. It is his children who can move, first his first son who was there from the beginning which is the Logos (or how you want to call him, Paul calls him Isu Chrestos). Secondly his daughter Sophia meaning wisdom, also called the Holy Spirit or the Holy Dove, Paul speaks of the Holy Spirit.
This is gnostic, NOT catholic. Irenaeus stole it from the letters of Paul.
Nobody should listen too much to Hippolytus because he is a just a disciple of Irenaeus, just repeating and extending him. And Irenaeus is a liar.
Cora.

[Bernard Muller]

to hakeem,

Ehpraem's Against Marcion 1
The followers [of Marcion] therefore name our God 'the Just One'

The Just One (the god of Jews & Christian) is because He administers justice. Ephrem also call him the "Maker". But Ephrem also wrote about the god of Marcion, who he called "Stranger".
This is dualism.
also, O Marcion, that [these] two Gods, namely the Maker and the Stranger,

Cordially, Bernard