Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Post by Secret Alias »

More Against Heresies:

I now proceed to show, as follows, that the first order of production (primum ordinem emissionis), as conceived of by them , must be rejected. For they maintain that Nous and Aletheia were produced from Bythus and his Ennoea, which is proved to be a contradiction. (2.13.1)

There seems to be an unusual uses of 'order' which must derive from a particular philosophical school. Might be worth investigating:
For they maintain that Logos and Zoe were sent forth by him (i.e., Nous) as fashioners of this Pleroma; while they conceive of an emission of Logos, that is, the Word after the analogy of human feelings, and rashly form conjectures respecting God, as if they had discovered something wonderful in their assertion that Logos was I produced by Nous. All indeed have a clear perception that this may be logically affirmed with respect to men. But in Him who is God over all, since He is all Nous, and all Logos, as I have said before, and has in Himself nothing more ancient or late than another, and nothing at variance with another, but continues altogether equal, and similar, and homogeneous, there is no longer ground for conceiving of such production in the order which has been mentioned (jam non talis hujus ordinationis sequetur emissio). Just as he does not err who declares that God is all vision, and all hearing (for in what manner He sees, in that also He hears; and in what manner He hears, in that also He sees), so also he who affirms that He is all intelligence, and all word, and that, in whatever respect He is intelligence, in that also He is word, and that this Nous is His Logos, will still indeed have only an inadequate conception of the Father of all, but will entertain far more becoming [thoughts regarding Him] than do those who transfer the generation of the word to which men gave utterance to the eternal Word of God, assigning a beginning and course of production [to Him], even as they do to their own word. And in what respect will the Word of God--yea, rather God Himself, since He is the Word--differ from the word of men, if He follows the same order and process of generation (si eandem habuerit ordinationem et emissionem generationis)? (2.13.8)
There seems to be an obsessive belief that 'order' leads to a regular outcome. It is based in a particular school of philosophy? Aristotle?
Secret Alias
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Re: Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Post by Secret Alias »

And that's another thing strange about the early Church. And this is NEVER mentioned by scholars which - IMHO shows how much of a blind spot they have. If it was just that Irenaeus has this 'tick' regarding things being in their proper order, that he has OCD or something, that would be one thing. But then you have to start wondering about the strange way that literature that has been preserved BY IRENAEUS all has this strange tick. For instance, the way Hegesippus decides (basically for no discernable reason) to copy down the 'order' of apostolic succession in Rome. He literally makes this list, in the manner of the heretics he opposes. How does he know this? Perhaps the Roman church already made up this list and he just copied it. Fine. But you see that implies that the entire Church mirrors Irenaeus's OCD. The 'bad Church' according to Celsus is gathering in secret meetings. In other words, it's like the Mafia. The Mafia doesn't keep a diagram of the various 'capos' in the crime families. That's what the FBI does. But in ancient times you have the Roman authorities according to Celsus and this secret mafia. And then, strangely, you have Irenaeus producing this document that a 'friend' of the Church, Hegesippus, decided to produce an FBI flowchart of all the 'good heads' of the Roman church family. The point is it immediately distinguishes the 'good Church' in Rome from the 'bad secret Church' of the heresies.

It also distinguishes the succession list of aeons produced by the heresies (a secret kabbalah) from the succession list of 'heads' of the 'five families' (to borrow Mafia terminology).
Then, again, as to their assertion that the passion of the twelfth AEon was proved through the conduct of Judas, how is it possible that Judas can be compared [with this AEon] as being an emblem of her--he who was expelled from the number of the twelve, and never restored to his place? For that AEon, whose type they declare Judas to be, after being separated from her Enthymesis, was restored or recalled [to her former position]; but Judas was deprived [of his office], and cast out, while Matthias was ordained in his place (et in locum ejus Matthias ordinatus est) according to what is written, "And his bishopric let another take." (2.20.2)
So in effect the heretics reading the gospel said Jesus 'ordered' the twelve to mirror the pleroma. But Irenaeus has Hegesippus produce a succession list and Acts too which effectively say the succession list are just linear progressions of 'order' in the Church. Nothing mystical.
Judas, then, the twelfth in order of the disciples, was not a type of the suffering AEon, nor, again, was the passion of the Lord; for these two things have been shown to be in every respect mutually dissimilar and inharmonious. This is the case not only as respects the points which I have already mentioned, but with regard to the very number. For that Judas the traitor is the twelfth in order, is agreed upon by all, there being twelve apostles mentioned by name in the Gospel. But this AEon is not the twelfth, but the thirtieth; for, according to the views under consideration, there were not twelve AEons only produced by the will of the Father, nor was she sent forth the twelfth in order (neque duodecimus ordine emissus
est): they reckon her, [on the contrary,] as having been produced in the thirtieth place. How, then, can Judas, the twelfth in order, be the type and image of that AEon who occupies the thirtieth place? (Quomodo ergo duodecimus ordine Judas, ejus qui in tricesimo ordine est. Eon, potest esse typus et imago ? ) (ibid)
And again:
If, however, they say that Judas was a type of the Enthymesis, not as separated from the AEon, but of the passion entwined with her, neither in this way can the number twelve be regarded as a [fitting] type of the number three. For in the one case Judas was cast away, and Matthias was ordained instead of him (Hic enim Judas ejectus est, et Matthias pro eo ordinatus)
Even the language used to describe the Aeons 'ordained' in heaven sounds like the language associated with the apostolic succession list. Unclear whether this is Irenaeus or the heretics:
For the period included between the thirtieth and the fiftieth year can never be regarded as one year, unless indeed, among their AEons, there be so long years assigned to those who sit in their order (ex ordine resident) with Bythus in the Pleroma; of which beings Homer the poet, too, has spoken, doubtless being inspired by the Mother of their [system of] error: "The gods sat round, while Jove presided o'er, And converse held upon the golden floor." (2.22.6)
In the account of the Roman succession list:
To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession (Hac ordinatione et successione), the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth. (3.3)
The next chapter:
Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question(2) among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the order of the tradition (nonne oportebat ordinem sequi Traditionis) which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches? To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent (Cui ordinationi assentiunt multi gentes barbarorum eoruin qui in Christum credunt), having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God (3.4.1,2)
This has always been a puzzling section. The author is actually juxtaposing the gnostic aeons and the belief the heretics have in them with the apostolic succession list - both 'orders' - and interestingly even subordinating the Scriptures, the New Testament canon itself, to the order.
Secret Alias
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Re: Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Post by Secret Alias »

The order of words against the heretics:
From many other instances also, we may discover that the apostle frequently uses a transposed order in his sentences, due to the rapidity of his discourses, and the impetus of the Spirit which is in him. An example occurs in the [Epistle] to the Galatians, where he expresses himself as follows: "Wherefore then the law of works?(9) It was added, until the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator."(10) For the order of the words runs thus (Ordinatio enim sic est): "Wherefore then the law of works? Ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator, it was added until the seed should come to whom the promise was made," -- man thus asking the question, and the Spirit making answer. And again, in the Second to the Thessalonians, speaking of Antichrist, he says, "And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ(11) shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy him(11) with the presence of his coming; [even him] whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders."(12) Now in these [sentences] the order of the words is this (Et-enim in his ordinatio dictorum sic est): "And then shall be revealed that wicked, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the presence of His coming." For he does not mean that the coming of the Lord is after the working of Satan; but the coming of the wicked one, whom we also call Antichrist. (3.7.3)
Acts provides the proper understanding of the 'order' of Paul's life:
But that this Luke was inseparable from Paul, and his fellow-labourer in the Gospel, he himself clearly evinces, not as a matter of boasting, but as bound to do so by the truth itself. For he says that when Barnabas, and John who was called Mark, had parted company from Paul, and sailed to Cyprus, "we came to Troas;"(10) and when Paul had beheld in a dream a man of Macedonia, saying, "Come into Macedonia, Paul, and help us," "immediately," he says, "we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, understanding that the Lord had called us to preach the Gospel unto them. Therefore, sailing from Troas, we directed our ship's course towards Samothracia." And then he carefully indicates all the rest of their journey as far as Philippi, and how they delivered their first address: "for, sitting down," he says, "we spake unto the women who had assembled;"(11) and certain believed, even a great many. And again does he say, "But we sailed from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came to Troas, where we abode seven days."(12) And all the remaining [details] of his course with Paul he recounts (Et reliqua omnia ex ordine cum Paulo refert), indicating with all diligence both places, and cities, and number of days, until they went up to Jerusalem (3.14.1)
Again:

Paul also says: "But when the fulness of time came, God sent forth His Son."(6) By which is made manifest, that all things which had been foreknown of the Father, our Lord did accomplish in their order, season, and hour (ordine et tempore et hora), foreknown and fitting, being indeed one and the same, but rich and great. For He fulfils the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things which have been formed, the only-begotten of the Father, Christ who was announced, and the Word of God, who became incarnate when the fulness of time had come, at which the Son of God had to become the Son of man. (3.16.7)
Secret Alias
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Re: Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Post by Secret Alias »

On the Flesh of Christ:

Marcion, with the purpose of denying Christ's flesh, also denied his nativity: or else, with intent to deny his nativity, denied his flesh. Evidently his intention was that nativity and flesh should not give mutual testimony each to the other, inasmuch as there can be neither nativity without flesh nor flesh without nativity-- as though he too could not by the same heretical licence either have admitted the flesh and denied the nativity, as did Apelles his pupil and subsequent renegade, or else, admitting both flesh and nativity, have put a different meaning upon them, as did his fellow-pupil and co-renegade Valentinus. And moreover, as he was the first to make the suggestion that Christ's flesh was putative, he could equally well have invented a phantasm of a nativity, so that the Virgin's conception and pregnancy and child-bearing, no less than the order of the life of the Child himself (et ipsius exinde infantis ordo), might have been held docetically: they would have deceived the same eyes and the same minds as the supposition of flesh played tricks with. (1)

Notice also that Marcion is said to have been the master of Valentinus and Apelles.

Prescription:
APPEAL, therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures, nor must the contest be carried on concerning points where victory is impossible or
uncertain or too little uncertain. For even though the discussion from the Scriptures should not so result as to place each side in an equal position,
the order of things (ordo rerum) would demand that this point should first be decided—the point which alone now calls for discussion, namely : Who holds the Faith to which the Scriptures belong ? From whom and through whom, and when, and to whom was the doctrinal teaching delivered whereby men are made Christians ? For wheresoever it shall appear that the true Christian religion and faith exist, there will be found the true Scriptures and interpretations and all Christian traditions. (19)
Afterwards, as he (Paul) himself relates,1 he "went up to Jerusalem to see Peter," because of his office, and by right of course of an identical faith and preaching. For they would not have wondered at his having become a preacher from a persecutor if he had preached anything contrary to their teaching; nor would they have "glorified the Lord" if Paul had presented himself as His adversary. Accordingly they "gave him the right hand,"2 the sign of concord and agreement, and arranged among themselves a distribution of office (et inter se distributionem officii ordinauerunt), not a division of the Gospel, namely, that each should preach not a different message, but the same message to different persons, Peter to the Circumcision, Paul to the Gentiles. (23)

IF, then, it is incredible either that the Apostles were ignorant of the full scope of their message, or that they did not publish to all the whole plan
of the Rule of Faith (non omnem ordinem regulae omnibus edidisse), let us see whether, perchance, whilst the Apostles indeed preached simply and fully, the Churches through their own fault received it otherwise than as the Apostles used to set it forth. All these incitements to hesitancy you will find thrust forward by heretics. (27)

LET me, however, return from this digression to discuss the priority of Truth and the lateness of falsehood, with the support of that parable 1 which places first the good seed of the wheat sown by the Lord, and afterwards brings in the corruption of the barren weed of the wild oats by His enemy the Devil. For properly this parable represents the difference of doctrines; since the Word of GOD is also in other places likened to seed. Thus from
the very order itself it is made manifest that what was first delivered is from the Lord (Ita ex ipso ordine manifestatur id esse dominicum
et uerum quod sit prius traditum), and true; and on the other hand, that what was afterwards introduced is strange and false. This sentence will stand against all later heresies which possess no conscientious ground of confidence whereby to claim the truth for their own side.

BUT if any heresies dare to plant themselves in Apostolic times, so as to be thought thereby to have been handed down by the Apostles because they
existed under the Apostles, we can say : "Let them set forth the earliest beginnings of their Churches; let them unfold the order of their bishops (euoluant ordinem episcoporum suorum) coming down by succession from the beginning in such a manner that their first bishop had for his ordainer and predecessor one of the Apostles or of those Apostolic men who never deserted the Apostles."

For in this way Apostolic Churches declare their origin : as, for instance, the Church of the Smyrnaeans records that Polycarp 1 was placed
there by John; and the Roman Church that Clement was ordained thereto by Peter (sicut Romanorum Clementem a Petro ordinatum est). And
exactly in the same way the rest of the Churches can produce persons who, ordained to the episcopate by Apostles, became transmitters of the
Apostolic seed. (31, 32)
Secret Alias
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Re: Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Post by Secret Alias »

So here's my emerging thesis.

1. early Christianity was an underground religion which passed information secretly.
2. later Christianity (c. 180 CE) wanted to obscure that tradition and instead wanted to make Christianity seem 'orderly.'
3. the figurehead of this 'new orderly Christianity' was John allegedly.
4. the source for this association between John and τάξις was Papias's account of John's criticism of Mark's gospel.
5. Whatever τάξις meant to Papias, Irenaeus seems to have taken over the meaning. τάξις was at the core of a multifaceted criticism of earliest Christianity allegedly from an apostolic spokesman.
6. Irenaeus uses John's use of τάξις against those who promote a secret interpretation of the prologue to the gospel of John. He says in effect I know John, John demands a proper τάξις, he wouldn't just insert words in his text and apply a secret meaning = Book 1.
7. Irenaeus uses τάξις in the same way in Book Three. He uses a corrupt interpretation of Papias to argue for the fourfold gospel and then attacks those who rely on viva voce (= Papias is one!) and then puts up the τάξις of the Roman episcopal list of Hegesippus (3.3) as superior to written texts (3.4).
8. But it is Irenaeus/Tertullian's attack on Marcion and his gospel which is the most interesting. Irenaeus uses τάξις at the heart of his argument against Marcion and his gospel. I will examine this in a moment.

But let me start with some problems or difficulties with my theory that need to be worked out.

a) Against Marcion Book 3 uses ordo in the way that helps my theory. But I have also always assumed that that parallels which exist with Against the Jews was a result of Against the Jews being older and Against Marcion 3 being a copy of Against the Jews. It is hard to reconcile that understanding with my interest in the use of ordo in Against Marcion 3. Ordo appears in many of the same places in both texts. I will have to examine all those references to see if it still allows for me to use these references to ordo to pertain to the gospel of Marcion and in particular whether the gospel of Marcion was Mark.
b) another situation to consider. Luke uses τάξις language in the intro. It seems to have been shaped by Papias. I have always thought that the Lukan intro (and the Johannine prologue for that matter) came from a 'super gospel.' Not sure how this is impacted by my theory.
c) the super gospel theory also lays at the heart to my interpretation of the presence of Matthew references in the gospel of Marcion. I have always assumed that Against Marcion makes reference to the Antitheses (Matthew 5:17 - 44 because these Antitheses were in the Marcionite gospel. It isn't clear how this needs to be reconciled with the idea that Papias is saying Matthew augmented (for the better) the gospel of Mark which is the Marcionite gospel. Clearly I am not talking about canonical Mark.
d) I have also noticed certain parallels between Baarda's 'Flying Jesus' gospel and the Marcionite gospel. Baarda noticed them too (although I say more than he did). It would seem that if this were true the traditional understanding of Papias's use of τάξις when pertaining to the gospel of Mark which was Marcion's gospel works here. In other words, Mark heard 'anecdotes from Peter about Jesus flying which Matthew corrected. I am not sure we have to think in terms of either/or with Papias's use of τάξις. Like Irenaeus's use it may have been multifarious.
e) I am starting to come away with the idea that a 'super gospel' one which had John's prologue, the bit about Jesus coming from heaven to Jerusalem, the flying Jesus and other mystical features may have been used by various heretical groups. The division of the gospel into four 'helped' the notion that each heretical group only got 'part' of the gospel message and that the fourfold arrangement helped bring Christians together. Having John as the author of the prologue helps dispel the common use of key words to pertain to aeonic powers. Similarly Papias's story about Matthew developing the τάξις of Mark helped justify the canonical gospel of Matthew. The Marcionites were distanced from canonical Mark by the invented gospel of Luke (with the τάξις-infused prologue).
Secret Alias
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Re: Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Post by Secret Alias »

So to simplify:

Point 1:

Papias > John = Mark > τάξις > Matthew
Irenaeus = John τάξις > Mark + Matthew + Luke + John

It's no longer a report about τάξις from John. John becomes the arbiter of τάξις for the canon with the influence of Irenaeus.

Point 2:

Irenaeus himself makes τάξις the basis for the rule of faith/truth.
But why? How does he justify this? Clearly it has something to do with John.
Irenaeus makes himself out to be the 'heir' of Polycarp who allegedly was 'installed' by John as bishop of Ephesus.
John is the arbiter of τάξις. But interestingly the only place τάξις (ordo) is used in relation to an episcopal line is at Rome.
While we know the source as Hegesippus, Clement knows the author as 'Josephus.'
Irenaeus (according to my understanding) attributes Roman episcopal list to Polycarp hence the interest in τάξις makes sense (= Johannine).
Polycarp comes to Rome as witness of John to approve of the τάξις of the Roman Church.

Point 3:

Papias's knowledge is from viva voce.
Irenaeus's knowledge is bookish. All his knowledge (aside from an alleged 'childhood memory') is from books.
Irenaeus is a bookish person. We tend to see Marcion as bookish. But is the 'bookishness' a reflection of our source of information for Marcion instead?

Point 4:

There is a relationship between Irenaeus and Tertullian.
There is a relationship between Irenaeus and Florinus.
Florens Tertullian is identified as Florinus by Karsen, K. (‘Irenaeus von Lyon und der römische Presbyter Florinus’, Der Katholik, 1910, II, pp. 40–50Google Scholar; 88–105)
Irenaeus condemns Florinus
Tertullian borrows heavily from Irenaeus.
But does Tertullian's borrowing from Irenaeus rule out the possibility Tertullian = Florinus?
Irenaeus's emphasis on τάξις naturally leads to the monarchian position of Florinus where Father > Son > Holy Spirit as a continuous succession of identity.
cora
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Re: Is Papias's "Mark wasn't in the Correct Order" At the Heart of Against Marcion's Appeal to Ordo?

Post by cora »

Nice, the OCD aspect, but I think Irenaeus was that way. He was very much in favour of order, IMO meaning the order and unity of the catholic church to be. As opposed to the gnostics, who all said something different (which is inherent to their religion). Irenaeus hated that.
The canon of the catholic church opened in 200, the information was delivered by Irenaeus, who was not just "someone". It was his job from rome to put everything together, which means he produced the NT, and put the catholic church together.
He wrote the Acts, he is Clemens of rome, he is Hegesippus, he is Papias. Papias is not known to Eusebius by his own papers, but only through other writers. In other words, the whole Papias is hearsay. There were no bishops in the time Papias was supposed to live.
Bishops came in the 2nd century around 130. The first bishop of rome was appointed in 156, Anicetus. Irenaeus is lying as always. You could say he had too, when his job was to pretend that the catholic church started immediately when Peter came to rome (a story invented in rome in 160). It is only about rome, because they thought themselves the most important, and a bit about Turkey because that was where the gospel of John came from (alledgedly). And: have you ever heard about any other of the 12 apostles doing or saying or writing anything? The statues in Rome come from 3rd century legends. The 12 apostles come from Irenaeus to establish the authority of the church.
Tertullianus was a lawyer in rome originating from Africa. He became Irenaeus' personal convert. Irenaeus sent him back to Africa. Tertullianus did not use Irenaeus, Irenaeus used Tertullianus, to translate for him in latin (which Irenaeus could not write). So the flow of "information" went the other way. It was also to show how widespread the church was. Did you know Tert. left the church later, totally disappointed? He said that it was just a group of bishops and that there was nothing for the common people (which is both true). Tert. was not a bishop and he is not called a churchfather.
You know Irenaeus means peacebringer? An article pointed to a word which was not used anywhere else in the NT: look in the blessings in Mathew.
And find: blessed are the peacebringers, for they will be seen as gods children. Irenaeus put himself in the blessings!!!!!!
Thanks for you study!!
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