Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:44 am

mlinssen wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:38 am
If you feel insecure about variation in underlying sources that partially behave as moving targets throughout the centuries, then why are you interested in biblical texts? When will you draw any conclusion, even a preliminary one?

Because "The manuscripts evince a lot of variability" on frigging everything
No, I am saying that they are especially variable on the names for Jesus. By several factors. We have to be cautious with every line, to be sure, but when it comes to the names of Jesus the variability is upped several notches.

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mlinssen
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Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.

Post by mlinssen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:19 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:44 am
mlinssen wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:38 am
If you feel insecure about variation in underlying sources that partially behave as moving targets throughout the centuries, then why are you interested in biblical texts? When will you draw any conclusion, even a preliminary one?

Because "The manuscripts evince a lot of variability" on frigging everything
No, I am saying that they are especially variable on the names for Jesus. By several factors. We have to be cautious with every line, to be sure, but when it comes to the names of Jesus the variability is upped several notches.
Fair enough

I read your inventory list, that reveals a rather wobbly way of handling sources indeed ...
Odd how those MSS got that special treatment, and the others didn't. I can only think that it meant absolutely nothing to the scribes, but that doesn't explain why 'Jesus Christ' in the SYnoptics doesn't get "translated" as 'Christ Jesus' every now and then

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:36 am

mlinssen wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:19 am
I read your inventory list, that reveals a rather wobbly way of handling sources indeed ...
Odd how those MSS got that special treatment, and the others didn't. I can only think that it meant absolutely nothing to the scribes, but that doesn't explain why 'Jesus Christ' in the SYnoptics doesn't get "translated" as 'Christ Jesus' every now and then
I am not sure what you mean here. Which manuscripts got special treatment? Which did not? (My own selection was limited, so I myself treated the manuscripts specially, since I do not have access to all of them; but I do have access to the "big four" for Paul, so those are the ones I used.)

It would be hard for Jesus Christ to appear as Christ Jesus "every now and then" in the synoptics, because Jesus Christ, as a combined name, appears only thrice in the synoptics to begin with. One of those instances (Matthew 1.18) does show variability (Vaticanus has Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ), whereas the other two (Matthew 1.1 and Mark 1.1) do not show variability among the principal manuscripts (not sure about lesser ones).

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mlinssen
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Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.

Post by mlinssen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:27 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:36 am
mlinssen wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:19 am
I read your inventory list, that reveals a rather wobbly way of handling sources indeed ...
Odd how those MSS got that special treatment, and the others didn't. I can only think that it meant absolutely nothing to the scribes, but that doesn't explain why 'Jesus Christ' in the SYnoptics doesn't get "translated" as 'Christ Jesus' every now and then
I am not sure what you mean here. Which manuscripts got special treatment? Which did not? (My own selection was limited, so I myself treated the manuscripts specially, since I do not have access to all of them; but I do have access to the "big four" for Paul, so those are the ones I used.)

It would be hard for Jesus Christ to appear as Christ Jesus "every now and then" in the synoptics, because Jesus Christ, as a combined name, appears only thrice in the synoptics to begin with. One of those instances (Matthew 1.18) does show variability (Vaticanus has Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ), whereas the other two (Matthew 1.1 and Mark 1.1) do not show variability among the principal manuscripts (not sure about lesser ones).
With "every now and then" I meant "in every other MSS", given the proficiency that your list shows of Boernerianus and Vaticanus: where in your examples it says Christ Jesus they like to see Christ, and where it says Jesus Christ they like to see Jesus - and I am very surprised that Vaticanus turns around the Jesus Christ of Matthew 1:18 (I could have lived with just Jesus, for example, given your list).
But yes, surely there are variations

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Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:31 am

mlinssen wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:27 am
With "every now and then" I meant "in every other MSS", given the proficiency that your list shows of Boernerianus and Vaticanus.
Ah, I see. Yes, that makes more sense. Thanks.

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Re: (Lord) Jesus (-Christ-) (-Jesus) in the NT

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:59 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:04 am

Wooha, that is very interesting as well!
Here are the numbers

Romans through Galatians:

Code: Select all

Lord Jesus Christ	26	9%
Jesus Christ		24	8%
Christ Jesus		41	14%
Christ			174	60%
Jesus			23	8%
			288	
Philippians through Revelation:

Code: Select all

Lord Jesus Christ	27	11%
Jesus Christ		34	14%
Christ Jesus		43	18%
Christ			83	35%
Jesus			48	20%
			235
Differences between books are probably to be expected, but some are noteworthy eg. the two books of Timothy are virtually all Christ Jesus, but the books from Hebrews on -- Hebrews; James; Jude; 1 and 2 Peter; 1, 2, and 3 John; Jude; and Revelations -- don't have any 'Christ Jesus' at all; they also have less Christ per se, yet have lots of Jesus Christ or simply Jesus.

Titus only has 3 Jesus Christ and 1 Christ Jesus, no singular 'Jesus' or 'Christ'.

Ephesians and Colossians are mostly to virtually all Christ or Christ Jesus. Galatians is similar, though has 4 Jesus Christs and 3 Lord Jesus Christs.

1 and 2 Corinthians are similar to Ephesians and Colossians but with a handful more Jesus, though in 2 Corinthians they're virtually all in chapter 4.

The Canonical Gospels are mostly Jesus - overwhelmingly so. Acts is similar though has a few more Jesus Christs and, on quite perusal, maybe just one 'Christ Jesus'.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark

Post by mlinssen » Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:47 pm

It reminds me of the first years when Trump was in office and people would talk about Donald Trump, Trump Donald, Donald the Trump, and even Trumping Donald

Oh wait...

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Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:17 am

Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus are reversible because Jesus is a personal name and Christ is an honorific (just as a certain famous Seleucid king can be either Ἀντίοχος Ἐπιφανής or ὁ Ἐπιφανὴς Ἀντίοχος). If both were personal names, they would not be reversible (Marcus Antonius, never Antonius Marcus). Jesus being a personal name is also why it is transliterated (יְהוֹשׁוּעַ to Ἰησοῦς), rarely translated; Christ being an honorific is why it is translated (מָשִׁיחַ to Χριστός) at least as often as it is transliterated (much like Σεβαστός and Augustus).

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Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:47 am

to be pedantic the NT doesn't even have those names except for the rare one the copyist missed/editorially fatigued

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Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark

Post by Jax » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:57 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:17 am
Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus are reversible because Jesus is a personal name and Christ is an honorific (just as a certain famous Seleucid king can be either Ἀντίοχος Ἐπιφανής or ὁ Ἐπιφανὴς Ἀντίοχος). If both were personal names, they would not be reversible (Marcus Antonius, never Antonius Marcus). Jesus being a personal name is also why it is transliterated (יְהוֹשׁוּעַ to Ἰησοῦς), rarely translated; Christ being an honorific is why it is translated (מָשִׁיחַ to Χριστός) at least as often as it is transliterated (much like Σεβαστός and Augustus).
Just out of curiosity. Why wouldn't the Greeks translate a Jewish name? For instance Yeshua could have been something like Theosoteria.

Just askin.

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