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Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:44 am
by Ben C. Smith
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:38 amIf you feel insecure about variation in underlying sources that partially behave as moving targets throughout the centuries, then why are you interested in biblical texts? When will you draw any conclusion, even a preliminary one?
Because
"The manuscripts evince a lot of variability" on frigging everything
No, I am saying that they are
especially variable on the names for Jesus. By several factors. We have to be cautious with every line, to be sure, but when it comes to the names of Jesus the variability is upped several notches.
Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:19 am
by mlinssen
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:44 am
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:38 amIf you feel insecure about variation in underlying sources that partially behave as moving targets throughout the centuries, then why are you interested in biblical texts? When will you draw any conclusion, even a preliminary one?
Because
"The manuscripts evince a lot of variability" on frigging everything
No, I am saying that they are
especially variable on the names for Jesus. By several factors. We have to be cautious with every line, to be sure, but when it comes to the names of Jesus the variability is upped several notches.
Fair enough
I read your inventory list, that reveals a rather wobbly way of handling sources indeed ...
Odd how those MSS got that special treatment, and the others didn't. I can only think that it meant absolutely nothing to the scribes, but that doesn't explain why 'Jesus Christ' in the SYnoptics doesn't get "translated" as 'Christ Jesus' every now and then
Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:36 am
by Ben C. Smith
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:19 amI read your inventory list, that reveals a rather wobbly way of handling sources indeed ...
Odd how those MSS got that special treatment, and the others didn't. I can only think that it meant absolutely nothing to the scribes, but that doesn't explain why 'Jesus Christ' in the SYnoptics doesn't get "translated" as 'Christ Jesus' every now and then
I am not sure what you mean here. Which manuscripts got special treatment? Which did not? (My own selection was limited, so I myself treated the manuscripts specially, since I do not have access to all of them; but I do have access to the "big four" for Paul, so those are the ones I used.)
It would be hard for Jesus Christ to appear as Christ Jesus "every now and then" in the synoptics, because Jesus Christ, as a combined name, appears only thrice in the synoptics to begin with. One of those instances (Matthew 1.18) does show variability (Vaticanus has Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ), whereas the other two (Matthew 1.1 and Mark 1.1) do not show variability among the principal manuscripts (not sure about lesser ones).
Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:27 am
by mlinssen
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:36 am
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:19 amI read your inventory list, that reveals a rather wobbly way of handling sources indeed ...
Odd how those MSS got that special treatment, and the others didn't. I can only think that it meant absolutely nothing to the scribes, but that doesn't explain why 'Jesus Christ' in the SYnoptics doesn't get "translated" as 'Christ Jesus' every now and then
I am not sure what you mean here. Which manuscripts got special treatment? Which did not? (My own selection was limited, so I myself treated the manuscripts specially, since I do not have access to all of them; but I do have access to the "big four" for Paul, so those are the ones I used.)
It would be hard for Jesus Christ to appear as Christ Jesus "every now and then" in the synoptics, because Jesus Christ, as a combined name, appears only thrice in the synoptics to begin with. One of those instances (Matthew 1.18) does show variability (Vaticanus has Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ), whereas the other two (Matthew 1.1 and Mark 1.1) do not show variability among the principal manuscripts (not sure about lesser ones).
With "every now and then" I meant "in every other MSS", given the proficiency that your list shows of Boernerianus and Vaticanus: where in your examples it says Christ Jesus they like to see Christ, and where it says Jesus Christ they like to see Jesus - and I am very surprised that Vaticanus turns around the Jesus Christ of Matthew 1:18 (I could have lived with just Jesus, for example, given your list).
But yes, surely there are variations
Re: (Lord) Jesus (Christ) (Jesus) in all Romans ff.
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:31 am
by Ben C. Smith
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:27 amWith "every now and then" I meant "in every other MSS", given the proficiency that your list shows of Boernerianus and Vaticanus.
Ah, I see. Yes, that makes more sense. Thanks.
Re: (Lord) Jesus (-Christ-) (-Jesus) in the NT
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:59 pm
by MrMacSon
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:04 am
Wooha, that is very interesting as well!
Here are the numbers
Romans through Galatians:
Code: Select all
Lord Jesus Christ 26 9%
Jesus Christ 24 8%
Christ Jesus 41 14%
Christ 174 60%
Jesus 23 8%
288
Philippians through Revelation:
Code: Select all
Lord Jesus Christ 27 11%
Jesus Christ 34 14%
Christ Jesus 43 18%
Christ 83 35%
Jesus 48 20%
235
Differences between books are probably to be expected, but some are noteworthy eg. the two books of Timothy are virtually all
Christ Jesus, but the books from Hebrews on --
Hebrews; James; Jude; 1 and 2 Peter; 1, 2, and 3 John; Jude; and Revelations -- don't have any 'Christ Jesus' at all; they also have less
Christ per se, yet have lots of
Jesus Christ or simply
Jesus.
Titus only has 3
Jesus Christ and 1
Christ Jesus, no singular 'Jesus' or 'Christ'.
Ephesians and Colossians are mostly to virtually all
Christ or
Christ Jesus. Galatians is similar, though has 4
Jesus Christs and 3
Lord Jesus Christs.
1 and 2 Corinthians are similar to Ephesians and Colossians but with a handful more
Jesus, though in 2 Corinthians they're virtually all in chapter 4.
The Canonical Gospels are mostly
Jesus - overwhelmingly so. Acts is similar though has a few more
Jesus Christs and, on quite perusal, maybe just one 'Christ Jesus'.
Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:47 pm
by mlinssen
It reminds me of the first years when Trump was in office and people would talk about Donald Trump, Trump Donald, Donald the Trump, and even Trumping Donald
Oh wait...
Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:17 am
by Ben C. Smith
Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus are reversible because Jesus is a personal name and Christ is an honorific (just as a certain famous Seleucid king can be either Ἀντίοχος Ἐπιφανής or ὁ Ἐπιφανὴς Ἀντίοχος). If both were personal names, they would not be reversible (Marcus Antonius, never Antonius Marcus). Jesus being a personal name is also why it is transliterated (יְהוֹשׁוּעַ to Ἰησοῦς), rarely translated; Christ being an honorific is why it is translated (מָשִׁיחַ to Χριστός) at least as often as it is transliterated (much like Σεβαστός and Augustus).
Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:47 am
by perseusomega9
to be pedantic the NT doesn't even have those names except for the rare one the copyist missed/editorially fatigued
Re: Jesus / Christ in all of the NT: Matthew and Mark
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:57 am
by Jax
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:17 am
Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus are reversible because Jesus is a personal name and Christ is an honorific (just as a certain famous Seleucid king can be either Ἀντίοχος Ἐπιφανής or ὁ Ἐπιφανὴς Ἀντίοχος). If both were personal names, they would not be reversible (Marcus Antonius, never Antonius Marcus). Jesus being a personal name is also why it is transliterated (יְהוֹשׁוּעַ to Ἰησοῦς), rarely translated; Christ being an honorific is why it is translated (מָשִׁיחַ to Χριστός) at least as often as it is transliterated (much like Σεβαστός and Augustus).
Just out of curiosity. Why wouldn't the Greeks translate a Jewish name? For instance Yeshua could have been something like Theosoteria.
Just askin.