Alexandria 200AD: Origen/Ammonius vs Origen/Ammonius

[theomise]

Alexandria 200AD: Origen pupil of Ammonius (Neoplatonist) vs Origen pupil of Ammonius (Christian)

Just a random cosmic accident, or could some unscrupulous historiographic shenanigans have been afoot?

Basic background:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen_the_Pagan
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_Saccas
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_ ... ristian%29

(NB: Not suggesting some grand conspiratorial explanation is necessary here; I just find these multiple coincidences kind of curious...)

[DCHindley]

theo,

I just see this as 4th century Christians wanting to associate generally famous persons with themselves if only on the basis that they shared a name with a Christian author.

I think that despite Eusebius' belief to the contrary, Origen the Christian teacher of Alexandria (later Caesarea) was not the same as the famous Platonist philosopher Origen, also of Alexandria.

While I am less familiar with Ammonius, but I can see Christians like Eusebius noting that a famous philosopher held a philosophical doctrine that resonated with Christian "philosophy," and reasoning that he could "only" have held such a position because of Christian philosophical presuppositions.

One only has to read works attributed to Clement of Alexandria or Origen to realize that these folks were not "philosophers" on a par with known non-Christian philosophers. At best, they had been exposed to it as part of the basic educational platform taught to them by a "sophist" (tutor).

Early Christian "philosophers" like Justin and the fictional figure of Peter in the pseudo-Clementine literature are a joke, although Clement and Origen seem to be able to grasp concepts held in common by middle-Platonists and followers of Aristotle, which is about as far as a sophist/tutor could take a student before specialized study was required.

The Judean Philo of Alexandria, for what it is worth, had received this advanced study (despite being an observant Judean) as part of his desire to reconcile middle-Platonism, which certainly resonated with him, and the "philosophical principals" contained in the first five books of Judean Law, which he revered as sacred.

You do not really see Christian "philosophers" in the true sense until the time of Augustine and later.

DCH

Alexandria 200AD: Origen pupil of Ammonius (Neoplatonist) vs Origen pupil of Ammonius (Christian)

Just a random cosmic accident, or could some unscrupulous historiographic shenanigans have been afoot?

Basic background:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen_the_Pagan
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_Saccas
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_ ... ristian%29

(NB: Not suggesting some grand conspiratorial explanation is necessary here; I just find these multiple coincidences kind of curious...)

[Leucius Charinus]

theo,

I just see this as 4th century Christians wanting to associate generally famous persons with themselves if only on the basis that they shared a name with a Christian author.

I think it is more than that - the 4th century Christians wanted to associate themselves with a lineage of philosophers. The lineage was apostolic and the lineage had preserved a "canon of books" from an original author (Plato) for many centuries.

I think that despite Eusebius' belief to the contrary, Origen the Christian teacher of Alexandria (later Caesarea) was not the same as the famous Platonist philosopher Origen, also of Alexandria.

Eusebius' "belief" or "assertion" or "fabrication"?

While I am less familiar with Ammonius, but I can see Christians like Eusebius noting that a famous philosopher held a philosophical doctrine that resonated with Christian "philosophy," and reasoning that he could "only" have held such a position because of Christian philosophical presuppositions.

There is another simpler alternative. That is Eusebius simply lied about the 3rd century lineage of Christians by borrowing a few well renown 3rd century Platonist names.

To these two a third name can easily be added, namely Anatolius of Alexandria. Eusebius presents an Anatolius the Christian Bishop of Anatolia.

However this is what Rowan Williams has to say about this character .... In a revised edition 2002 of ARIUS: Heresy & Tradition, Rowan Williams revises his previous opinions on Anatolius, with the summary: "The suggestion that Anatolius, Iamblichus' teacher, is to identified with the Christian Bishop Anatolius of Laodicaea ... is a conjecture regarded very skeptically indeed by several well qualified judges." p.262

I have written an essay about this series of extremely surprising coincidences here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/N ... Christ.htm

It is entitled "A Pageant of Christian Identity Frauds masquerade in the Academy of Plato"

Evidence is presented to substantiate the presence of at least a trinity of Christian Identity Frauds masquerading in the Academy of Plato during the 3rd century. (1,2,3) From the 4th century mention is resurrected of Porphyry's Christian Identity Fraud and the likelihood is explored that the Christian Presbyter Arius of Alexandria, is just another Identity Fraud in a pattern of similar evidence. (4,5) The events of the Council of Nicaea are reconstructed in such a manner as to narrate from the profane perspective, the heresy, the exile and the "damnatio memoriae" of Arius of Alexandria, a non christian theologian/philosopher associated with the Alexandrian academy of Plato c.324 CE. (6,7)

•(0) Introduction - The Nondual God of Plato, Plato's Canon and its Apostolic Lineage

•(1) The Two Ammonii - Ammonius Saccas the Platonist and Ammonius the Christian

•(2) The Two Origen's - Origen the Platonist and Origen the Christian.

•(3) The Two Anatolii - Anatolius of Alexandria the Platonist and Anatolius the Christian Bishop

•(4) The Two Porphyrii - Porphyry the Platonist and Porphyry the Christian author

•(5) The Two Arii - Arius of Alexandria the Platonist and Arius the Christian Presbyter.

•(6) Reconstructing a Profane History of Nicaea - The Gods in the books of Plato and Constantine

•(7) Identity Frauds, conclusions and recommendations - Condemnation of pious forgery.

•(8) Reference: the Apostolic Lineage of the Academy of Plato - a chronological tabulation


Identity Fraud: - A criminal activity involving the use of a stolen or misappropriated identity. The process usually involves either stolen or forged identity documents used to obtain goods or services by deception.

Just a random cosmic accident, or could some unscrupulous historiographic shenanigans have been afoot?

Basic background:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen_the_Pagan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_Saccas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_ ... ristian%29

(NB: Not suggesting some grand conspiratorial explanation is necessary here; I just find these multiple coincidences kind of curious...)

My money is on unscrupulous historiographic shenanigans.

See above, a third "coincidence" (?????) may easily be added: Anatolius of Alexandria.

This brings us to the very unlikely series of parallel named from the 3rd century, one set from the Platonists and one set from the Christians:

The Two Ammonii - Ammonius Saccas the Platonist and Ammonius the Christian
The Two Origen's - Origen the Platonist and Origen the Christian.
The Two Anatolii - Anatolius of Alexandria the Platonist and Anatolius the Christian Bishop


NOTE: The 3rd century "Christian theologians" have - in the 4th century - been associated by name, to 3rd century Platonic theologians.

Why is it so?

[Leucius Charinus]

Possibly very relevant background reading to the "history" of Alexandria in the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/E ... 0Grant.htm
Early Alexandrian Christianity
Robert M. Grant

Commences ....

Eusebius and the Life of Origen

Nearly everything that is recorded about the early history of Alexandrian Christianity lies in the Church History of Eusebius. Many Alexandrian theological writings are preserved, but as might be expected they cast little light on historical events. Now the basic difficulty with Eusebius' work is that it has to be classified as "official history." It therefore contains a judicious mixture of authentic record with a good deal of suppression of fact and occasional outright lies. He wrote it in defence of himself and his friends and their outlook toward the nascent imperial church establishment under God's messenger Constantine.

///


[Concluding para]

The learned theologians, especially at Alexandria, were really trying to use the eclectic philosophy of their time in order to explain their religion. In the long run, what they took from Middle and Neoplatonic metaphysics and Stoic ethics was more important than the formal elements and the emphasis on secrecy and hidden meanings which they took from Neopythagoreanism. But these elements had a role to play, for them as for Neoplatonists like Porphyry and Iamblichus.

[theomise]

theo,

I just see this as 4th century Christians wanting to associate generally famous persons with themselves if only on the basis that they shared a name with a Christian author.

I think that despite Eusebius' belief to the contrary, Origen the Christian teacher of Alexandria (later Caesarea) was not the same as the famous Platonist philosopher Origen, also of Alexandria.

While I am less familiar with Ammonius, but I can see Christians like Eusebius noting that a famous philosopher held a philosophical doctrine that resonated with Christian "philosophy," and reasoning that he could "only" have held such a position because of Christian philosophical presuppositions.

One only has to read works attributed to Clement of Alexandria or Origen to realize that these folks were not "philosophers" on a par with known non-Christian philosophers. At best, they had been exposed to it as part of the basic educational platform taught to them by a "sophist" (tutor).

Early Christian "philosophers" like Justin and the fictional figure of Peter in the pseudo-Clementine literature are a joke, although Clement and Origen seem to be able to grasp concepts held in common by middle-Platonists and followers of Aristotle, which is about as far as a sophist/tutor could take a student before specialized study was required.

The Judean Philo of Alexandria, for what it is worth, had received this advanced study (despite being an observant Judean) as part of his desire to reconcile middle-Platonism, which certainly resonated with him, and the "philosophical principals" contained in the first five books of Judean Law, which he revered as sacred.

You do not really see Christian "philosophers" in the true sense until the time of Augustine and later.

DCH

Alexandria 200AD: Origen pupil of Ammonius (Neoplatonist) vs Origen pupil of Ammonius (Christian)

Just a random cosmic accident, or could some unscrupulous historiographic shenanigans have been afoot?

Basic background:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen_the_Pagan
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_Saccas
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_ ... ristian%29

(NB: Not suggesting some grand conspiratorial explanation is necessary here; I just find these multiple coincidences kind of curious...)

Hi DCHindley,

Thanks, interesting stuff.

In general, I actually find the Christian "name game" (from the multiple "Mary"s and "James"s in the NT to later theological figures) endlessly fascinating.

I agree that the phrase "Christian philosophy" was not really worthy of the locution before Augustine (and indeed, if Numenius of Apamea influenced Justin M, it was apparently more instructional/remedial than inspirational).

Also, to be honest, even Augustine never really did it for me philosophically (speaking as a non-Christian and non-enthusiast for religion in general).

In any case, the Christian "Ammonius" is best known traditionally in association with the invention of the "Ammonian Sections". Was Eusebius a bullshit artist? Yeah, probably. Was he Elmyr de Hory on steroids? That we can only speculate.

[theomise]

theo,

I just see this as 4th century Christians wanting to associate generally famous persons with themselves if only on the basis that they shared a name with a Christian author.

I think it is more than that - the 4th century Christians wanted to associate themselves with a lineage of philosophers. The lineage was apostolic and the lineage had preserved a "canon of books" from an original author (Plato) for many centuries.

I think that despite Eusebius' belief to the contrary, Origen the Christian teacher of Alexandria (later Caesarea) was not the same as the famous Platonist philosopher Origen, also of Alexandria.

Eusebius' "belief" or "assertion" or "fabrication"?

While I am less familiar with Ammonius, but I can see Christians like Eusebius noting that a famous philosopher held a philosophical doctrine that resonated with Christian "philosophy," and reasoning that he could "only" have held such a position because of Christian philosophical presuppositions.

There is another simpler alternative. That is Eusebius simply lied about the 3rd century lineage of Christians by borrowing a few well renown 3rd century Platonist names.

To these two a third name can easily be added, namely Anatolius of Alexandria. Eusebius presents an Anatolius the Christian Bishop of Anatolia.

However this is what Rowan Williams has to say about this character .... In a revised edition 2002 of ARIUS: Heresy & Tradition, Rowan Williams revises his previous opinions on Anatolius, with the summary: "The suggestion that Anatolius, Iamblichus' teacher, is to identified with the Christian Bishop Anatolius of Laodicaea ... is a conjecture regarded very skeptically indeed by several well qualified judges." p.262

I have written an essay about this series of extremely surprising coincidences here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/N ... Christ.htm

It is entitled "A Pageant of Christian Identity Frauds masquerade in the Academy of Plato"

Evidence is presented to substantiate the presence of at least a trinity of Christian Identity Frauds masquerading in the Academy of Plato during the 3rd century. (1,2,3) From the 4th century mention is resurrected of Porphyry's Christian Identity Fraud and the likelihood is explored that the Christian Presbyter Arius of Alexandria, is just another Identity Fraud in a pattern of similar evidence. (4,5) The events of the Council of Nicaea are reconstructed in such a manner as to narrate from the profane perspective, the heresy, the exile and the "damnatio memoriae" of Arius of Alexandria, a non christian theologian/philosopher associated with the Alexandrian academy of Plato c.324 CE. (6,7)

•(0) Introduction - The Nondual God of Plato, Plato's Canon and its Apostolic Lineage

•(1) The Two Ammonii - Ammonius Saccas the Platonist and Ammonius the Christian

•(2) The Two Origen's - Origen the Platonist and Origen the Christian.

•(3) The Two Anatolii - Anatolius of Alexandria the Platonist and Anatolius the Christian Bishop

•(4) The Two Porphyrii - Porphyry the Platonist and Porphyry the Christian author

•(5) The Two Arii - Arius of Alexandria the Platonist and Arius the Christian Presbyter.

•(6) Reconstructing a Profane History of Nicaea - The Gods in the books of Plato and Constantine

•(7) Identity Frauds, conclusions and recommendations - Condemnation of pious forgery.

•(8) Reference: the Apostolic Lineage of the Academy of Plato - a chronological tabulation


Identity Fraud: - A criminal activity involving the use of a stolen or misappropriated identity. The process usually involves either stolen or forged identity documents used to obtain goods or services by deception.

Just a random cosmic accident, or could some unscrupulous historiographic shenanigans have been afoot?

Basic background:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen_the_Pagan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_Saccas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_ ... ristian%29

(NB: Not suggesting some grand conspiratorial explanation is necessary here; I just find these multiple coincidences kind of curious...)

My money is on unscrupulous historiographic shenanigans.

See above, a third "coincidence" (?????) may easily be added: Anatolius of Alexandria.

This brings us to the very unlikely series of parallel named from the 3rd century, one set from the Platonists and one set from the Christians:

The Two Ammonii - Ammonius Saccas the Platonist and Ammonius the Christian
The Two Origen's - Origen the Platonist and Origen the Christian.
The Two Anatolii - Anatolius of Alexandria the Platonist and Anatolius the Christian Bishop


NOTE: The 3rd century "Christian theologians" have - in the 4th century - been associated by name, to 3rd century Platonic theologians.

Why is it so?

Hey Leucius,

Thanks for the additional parallels - great food for thought.

The reason the Origen/Ammonius parallels strike me as especially curious is:

1) In both the pagan and Christian case, we have a teacher 'Ammonius' teaching a student 'Origen'.
2) In both the pagan and Christian case, we have a teacher 'Ammonius' teaching a student 'Origen' in the late 2nd Century and early 3rd century.
3) In both the pagan and Christian case, we have a teacher 'Ammonius' teaching a student 'Origen' in the late 2nd Century and early 3rd century in the city of Alexandria.

So there is more than just a single "same name" fluke going on here.