Hello everyone --
Since my area of study has not been centered on Marcion or the Derivatives, the ongoing arguments of one god/two gods hasn't affected me that much - and yet, in a way it has. One of my foundational books has been Pettinato's The Archives of Ebla. There is a small section on names and one of the interesting areas is the study of, for example, " 'nmmr-ha'ad ", the "Panther-of-ha'ad", which may come to us as "Nimrod". There is also " 'nmmr-Yah", "Panther-of-Yah and I saw that it was a short step to " 'mmr-Yah " => "Immar-Yah", "Lamb-of-Yah".
There was also a good book which I don't have and haven't seen in a long time on "Asherah". Asherah was consort of El. There are other books, of course, but there is described in these Histories a change in the name of the "Highest" or "Most High" god in the Semitic Pantheon.
Is it "Yah" or "El"?
We have "Sam-u-El" and "Nathan-i-El".
We have "El-i-Jah" (Both names in one!) and "Is-ai-ah".
There are many, many more examples.
i see the whole scenario played out in "Maria" - "Immar-of-Yah" but what do I know?
So, my question to you Marcion Study-Types: Is the "good-god", "bad-god" story something that might go back 1000 years to Sumer and the argument over whether the Name should be an "El" or a "Yah"?
CW
"Yah"/"El"
Re: "Yah"/"El"
Hai,
It all has nothing to do with one another. El was the supreme god of Kanaan, which is not Israel but a much larger area where all kinds of people lived. Asherah was his wife. They had many sons, which were the gods of the incoming peoples. All very tolerant, typical polytheism.
When the Hebrews entered in 1200 BC, they also brought their own god with them, which is Jahweh. Actually he enters in the OT with Moses. There is talk of him being an Egyptian god Moses brought with him. As normal Jahweh became a son of El and Asherah.
But..….these Jahweh people were not satisfied. They wanted Jahweh as the supreme god. They worked on this and after maybe 200 or 300 years they had succeeded. Jahweh was the supreme god now, and he had now the wife Asherah and the many sons. The name El remained as a general word for "god". (Of course later again, the elite tried to get rid of Asherah and the sons, especially Baal). This did not really work out because Asherah and Baal were very popular. It took until they had written the OT (they say 450, I guess 330) that the elite managed to get the ONE GOD idea pushed through and everybody obeyed. Poor people.
good god evil god is something totally different. Paul, and his student Marcion were gnostics. Their god was the gnostic god, god the father, who is the good god. Gnosticism is a religion coming from Plato. The purpose of this religion is love. Some gnostics especially in or coming from Egypt, made elaborate systems with an evil material god in it, called Yaldabaoth. You guess what the jews and the church of rome thought. Paul and Marcion coming from Turkey had simple basic Gnosticism: father, son and holy spirit. To accuse them of treating Jahweh as an evil god, is simply a lie.
Of course it took a lot of work to forge the letters of Paul extensively into what they are now. In which you never know if Paul is speaking or somebody else. Quoting from the letters to prove something is almost impossible. The father, the son, and the holy spirit are still there. The church took them for their own convenience and made the Trinity out of them. Actually they are gnostic.
Cora.
It all has nothing to do with one another. El was the supreme god of Kanaan, which is not Israel but a much larger area where all kinds of people lived. Asherah was his wife. They had many sons, which were the gods of the incoming peoples. All very tolerant, typical polytheism.
When the Hebrews entered in 1200 BC, they also brought their own god with them, which is Jahweh. Actually he enters in the OT with Moses. There is talk of him being an Egyptian god Moses brought with him. As normal Jahweh became a son of El and Asherah.
But..….these Jahweh people were not satisfied. They wanted Jahweh as the supreme god. They worked on this and after maybe 200 or 300 years they had succeeded. Jahweh was the supreme god now, and he had now the wife Asherah and the many sons. The name El remained as a general word for "god". (Of course later again, the elite tried to get rid of Asherah and the sons, especially Baal). This did not really work out because Asherah and Baal were very popular. It took until they had written the OT (they say 450, I guess 330) that the elite managed to get the ONE GOD idea pushed through and everybody obeyed. Poor people.
good god evil god is something totally different. Paul, and his student Marcion were gnostics. Their god was the gnostic god, god the father, who is the good god. Gnosticism is a religion coming from Plato. The purpose of this religion is love. Some gnostics especially in or coming from Egypt, made elaborate systems with an evil material god in it, called Yaldabaoth. You guess what the jews and the church of rome thought. Paul and Marcion coming from Turkey had simple basic Gnosticism: father, son and holy spirit. To accuse them of treating Jahweh as an evil god, is simply a lie.
Of course it took a lot of work to forge the letters of Paul extensively into what they are now. In which you never know if Paul is speaking or somebody else. Quoting from the letters to prove something is almost impossible. The father, the son, and the holy spirit are still there. The church took them for their own convenience and made the Trinity out of them. Actually they are gnostic.
Cora.
Re: "Yah"/"El"
It could be that the formerly Canaanite god became (or effectively already was) the god of Israel to the north, and Yah(hu) was (or at some juncture became) the god of Judah to the south, and after Israel was conquered and defeated many who got away did so via fleeing to Judah, and soon after the god amalgamation or unification process began.
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Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: "Yah"/"El"
The Cult of Asherah in Ancient Israel and Judah: Evidence for a Hebrew Goddess:
https://www.amazon.com/Cult-Asherah-Anc ... 376&sr=8-5
Archives of Ebla: https://archive.org/details/archivesofeblaan00pett . See p. 277 for " ni-mi-ri-ya " => "Panther of Ya".
I should have more tomorrow if the opportunity arises.
Thanx to cora and lsayre (as always).
CW
https://www.amazon.com/Cult-Asherah-Anc ... 376&sr=8-5
Archives of Ebla: https://archive.org/details/archivesofeblaan00pett . See p. 277 for " ni-mi-ri-ya " => "Panther of Ya".
I should have more tomorrow if the opportunity arises.
Thanx to cora and lsayre (as always).
CW
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Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: "Yah"/"El"
Thank you very much!!!
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Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: "Yah"/"El"
Uzi Leibner, Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee..., p. 148 ( ISBN-13: 978-3161498718, ISBN-10: 3161498712 ):
"Klein (1939: 106) was the first to propose identifying Maghar with Ma'ariya of the piyyutim of the Priestly Courses (a settlement to the Priestly Course of Bilgah). The settlement is not mentioned in rabbinic literature. The only piyyut that may reflect familiarity of the realia of the settlement in which numerous caves were excavated is a lengthy kerova by Haduta (Palestinian, late sixth-early seventh century [see Fleischer 1983: 91]) in which the Paytan rhymes several times with playing on the words m'rh (cave) - Ma'ariya..."
I need to upload the entire page here but...
Ma'ariya. "Ma-a-ri-ya". Hmmm... Wonder what THAT means? And Bilgah? Whoever heard of that? Ummm...Oh yeah! Almost forgot! : /S.
CW
"Klein (1939: 106) was the first to propose identifying Maghar with Ma'ariya of the piyyutim of the Priestly Courses (a settlement to the Priestly Course of Bilgah). The settlement is not mentioned in rabbinic literature. The only piyyut that may reflect familiarity of the realia of the settlement in which numerous caves were excavated is a lengthy kerova by Haduta (Palestinian, late sixth-early seventh century [see Fleischer 1983: 91]) in which the Paytan rhymes several times with playing on the words m'rh (cave) - Ma'ariya..."
I need to upload the entire page here but...
Ma'ariya. "Ma-a-ri-ya". Hmmm... Wonder what THAT means? And Bilgah? Whoever heard of that? Ummm...Oh yeah! Almost forgot! : /S.
CW