Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by rakovsky »

I have seen a good list of allusions or coincidences between Josephus' writing and the early Christian stories, but I can't find it any more. One writer who sees coincidences between them is Atwill in his book "Caesar's Messiah," where he theorizes that Josephus helped draft the Christian story. I don't agree with Atwill's theory, but I do agree that there are apparent coincidences between the 1st century Christian story and elements in Josephus' writing.

Some that come to mind are:
- John the Baptist : Josephus' wilderness teacher Banus (meaning Bather)
- Jesus' brother James getting knocked down by a Sanhedrin group from the Temple Wall and killed : Josephus and his guard James jumping from a raised platform and escaping death
- Jesus' Crucifixion between two thieves : Josephus getting three friends down from crosses, one of whom survived

The list that I saw was like 4 times that long and more impressive.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by John2 »

I think Peter is mentioned in Ant. 19.7.4 and that Acts 12 could be based on it, given that both Simons were "very accurate in the knowledge of the law" and led an assembly (ecclesia, same word for church) in Jerusalem and were wafflers and submitted to the authorities and had a run in with Agrippa in Caesarea and were known for giving speeches.

However, there was a certain man of the Jewish nation at Jerusalem, who appeared to be very accurate in the knowledge of the law. His name was Simon. This man got together an assembly, while the king was absent at Cesarea, and had the insolence to accuse him as not living holily, and that he might justly be excluded out of the temple, since it belonged only to native Jews. But the general of Agrippa's army informed him that Simon had made such a speech to the people. So the king sent for him; and as he was sitting in the theater, he bid him sit down by him, and said to him with a low and gentle voice, "What is there done in this place that is contrary to the law?" But he had nothing to say for himself, but begged his pardon. So the king was more easily reconciled to him than one could have imagined, as esteeming mildness a better quality in a king than anger, and knowing that moderation is more becoming in great men than passion. So he made Simon a small present, and dismissed him.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by rakovsky »

Thanks, John. At this point I am just looking for a list of possible references, your example of Peter being one. In my view, the allusions are not exact and can be literary "foils", but are nonetheless deliberate. My best guess is that the list of allusions that I am thinking of came from Atwill, but I'm not sure.
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by rakovsky »

The Caesar's Messiah website has:
I present the following list showing the parallels between the ends of Jesus’ ministry and Titus’ campaign:
1) Characters are named Simon and John
2) Both sets of characters are judged
3) Both sides of the parallel occur at the conclusion of a ‘campaign’
4) Jesus predicts and Titus fulfills Simon going to a martyr’s death after being placed in bonds and taken someplace he does not wish to go
5) In each, John is spared
6) In each, Simon ‘follows’ ”
http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/blog
But the list I am think of is much longer than this one.
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by rakovsky »

maryhelena posted a table here comparing Jesus to kingly depictions in Josephus:
HISTORY and Coins | Philo (died about 50 c.e.) Flaccus | JOSEPHUS: War (about 75 c.e.)Antiquities:(about 94 c.e.) | The composite gospel Jesus figure based upon the historical figures of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus; Philip the Tetrarch and Agrippa I.
Her list is longer though.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=941
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by rakovsky »

This blog points out parallels, but it's not a very long list like I am thinking of:
https://drjbratti.wordpress.com/2017/06 ... -in-judea/

The Post Flaviana forum has threads on different parallels between Josephus and the NT, but it's also not formed into a list per se:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblic ... es_between

Richard Carrier has an article on Secular Web correctly showing that Josephus and Luke openly mention some of the same events (eg. Theudas' revolt), and he concludes that one probably knew the other, but this is not what I am talking about. I am referring to cryptic allusions in Josephus, like the story of Josephus getting his three friends down from crosses and one surviving. (Carrier, "Luke and Josephus," https://infidels.org/library/modern/ric ... ephus.html)
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by rakovsky »

Lena Einhorn discusses this topic on her website and she does have a little graph, but it's not the kind of long list that I am thinking of.
She has for instance:
Image
https://lenaeinhorn.se/jesus-and-the-egyptian-prophet/
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rakovsky wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:15 pm I have seen a good list of allusions or coincidences between Josephus' writing and the early Christian stories, but I can't find it any more.
I obviously have no idea which list you might be referring to, but here are three that might help, at least:


User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by rakovsky »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:52 pm
I obviously have no idea which list you might be referring to, but here are three that might help, at least:


The Reddit list that you cited is the kind of list that I have in mind, because I am thinking about cryptic allusions, and the reddit list connects Josephus getting his friends down from crosses with Joseph getting Jesus from the cross. I am thinking of a longer list though.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Do you know of a list of Josephus' Christian Allusions or Coincidences?

Post by Giuseppe »

To my knowledge, a such description is met only by this list:
Jesus son of Saphat in Josephus and the Jesus of the gospels: one and the same person
Post Reply