did you know???

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Geocalyx
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Re: did you know???

Post by Geocalyx »

cora wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:05 pm Can't you read? Stakes have nothing stretched out. Is this too difficult for you? Haven't you read how they did it? That's how they did it. Should I care what devout Christians are phantacising? Why do you? Stick to facts.
So to sum it up, stauros means cross and not stake because stakes have nothing stretched out, is that what you're saying?
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Baley
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Re: did you know???

Post by Baley »

Unfortunately you present some of your opinions as facts. And while complaining about someone being condescending, you answer someone else with a condescending "can't you read". This might not be the best way to make your arguments heard.
cora
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Re: did you know???

Post by cora »

Bernard,
I have seen this picture many times and I have no idea what it means. It looks like a T to me. The feet do not look fastened at all. I don't know.
What I do know is that the word CRUX is latin, and in the bible since 400. Crucifixion comes from crux. The first depiction of Jesus on the cross is from 500. Before that he was a fish or a lamb.
In the greek it was stauros in the bible, which means stake. There is no other meaning.
The only thing I can imagine is that they did not like the stake, and therefore said cross, although there was written stake. Cora.
cora
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Re: did you know???

Post by cora »

hakeem,
Stauros still means stake. One piece of wood. Of course it is forgery to translate it with cross. How many times is Josephus translated? Time enough to change the terms to cross and crucify. Like I said to Bernard: maybe there was written stake, but they said cross because they liked that better??
I have no idea what the greek word for cross would be. Do you? Cora.
cora
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Re: did you know???

Post by cora »

baley,
You are right but I got frustrated because he is playing dumb all the time. Three or four times in a row. He so-called does not understand. And I did not know any further. I am sure he does it on purpose. But you are still right.
My opinions are my opinions, and my facts are my facts. I sure hope the difference can be seen.
Of course my facts can be looked upon as opinions by people. I assure you it has been investigated. I write like that because I have studied history, and that is the normal way of writing I have learned. You present your case, or the answer to your question. Just like that. You are explicitly NOT telling all the time where you found it. It must be normally readable. When it is done you can present in the back the books you have used. That is how I had to do it. That is how I still do it. In history is the word story. It is always about telling a story. Most history books and articles work like that.
From me you won't get comparing Mark 3 with Mark 6 ever. Or endless thinking about what a certain sentence might mean. That is not my subject. That is not historical study. Cora.
cora
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Re: did you know???

Post by cora »

For the last time: stauros in the bible until 400 means stake, and no there is nothing sticking out. Officially Jesus died on a stake. That was in the bible.
Why the church started to talk about a cross I have no idea. Maybe they liked that better. But it WAS a stake.
You can see it on paintings from the end of the middle ages, if someone dared to paint it. Jesus was on an enormous cross, but the other two victims were on a stake as I described. With their elbows tied up with rope to a small piece of wood. Satisfied?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: did you know???

Post by GakuseiDon »

cora wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:02 pm For the last time: stauros in the bible until 400 means stake, and no there is nothing sticking out. Officially Jesus died on a stake. That was in the bible.
Why the church started to talk about a cross I have no idea. Maybe they liked that better. But it WAS a stake.
But surely you recognise the idea of a word evolving and taking on a different meaning. It happened with the word "stauros" itself. The only question is when it happened. Justin Martyr uses that word for a cross-shaped item in the Second Century, so it suggests a common usage by then.

In the Epistle of Barnabas, the outstretched hands of Moses is used as the symbol of a cross:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

Here again you have an intimation concerning the cross, and Him who should be crucified. Yet again He speaks of this in Moses, when Israel was attacked by strangers. And that He might remind them, when assailed, that it was on account of their sins they were delivered to death, the Spirit speaks to the heart of Moses, that he should make a figure of the cross, and of Him about to suffer thereon; for unless they put their trust in Him, they shall be overcome for ever. Moses therefore placed one weapon above another in the midst of the hill, and standing upon it, so as to be higher than all the people, he stretched forth his hands, and thus again Israel acquired the mastery. But when again he let down his hands, they were again destroyed. For what reason? That they might know that they could not be saved unless they put their trust in Him.

cora wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:02 pmYou can see it on paintings from the end of the middle ages, if someone dared to paint it. Jesus was on an enormous cross, but the other two victims were on a stake as I described. With their elbows tied up with rope to a small piece of wood.
So, doesn't that suggest a form of punishment rather than a shape? Someone on a cross is still being hung on a stake.

Perhaps Jesus was impaled on a stake, and Justin Martyr decided to use the word to mean 'cross' for philosophical reasons. That still suggests that 'stauros' could have been used for cross-shaped stakes. What would be helpful is to know if there is a word for such cross-shaped executions that differed from stake-impalement executions. If the same word is used for both, then how to decide?
hakeem
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Re: did you know???

Post by hakeem »

cora wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:31 pm hakeem,
Stauros still means stake. One piece of wood. Of course it is forgery to translate it with cross. How many times is Josephus translated? Time enough to change the terms to cross and crucify. Like I said to Bernard: maybe there was written stake, but they said cross because they liked that better??
I have no idea what the greek word for cross would be. Do you? Cora.
It would be good if you knew the Greek word for the noun "cross".

I understand that up to today the Greek word for the noun "cross" is still "σταυρός" [stauros].
Bernard Muller
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Re: did you know???

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Cora,
About Octavius of Minucius Felix (160-250), chapter XXIX:
"These, and such as these infamous things, we are not at liberty even to hear; it is even disgraceful with any more words to defend ourselves from such charges. For you pretend that those things are done by chaste and modest persons, which we should not believe to be done at all, unless you proved that they were true concerning yourselves. For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God. Miserable indeed is that man whose whole hope is dependent on mortal man, for all his help is put an end to with the extinction of the man. The Egyptians certainly choose out a man for themselves whom they may worship; him alone they propitiate; him they consult about all things; to him they slaughter victims; and he who to others is a god, to himself is certainly a man whether he will or no, for he does not deceive his own consciousness, if he deceives that of others. "Moreover, a false flattery disgracefully caresses princes and kings, not as great and chosen men, as is just, but as gods; whereas honour is more truly rendered to an illustrious man, and love is more pleasantly given to a very good man. Thus they invoke their deity, they supplicate their images, they implore their Genius, that is, their demon; and it is safer to swear falsely by the genius of Jupiter than by that of a king. Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses glided and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with handsoutstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it.

Now, the original Latin:
XXIX.
"Haec et huiusmodi propudia nobis non licet nec audire, etiam pluribus turpe defendere est: ea enim de castis fingitis et pudicis, quae fieri non crederemus, nisi de vobis probaretis.
"Nam quod religioni nostrae hominem noxium et crucem eius adscribitis, longe de vicinia veritatis erratis, qui putatis deum credi aut meruisse noxium aut potuisse terrenum. Ne ille miserabilis, cuius in homine mortali spes omnis innititur: totum enim eius auxilium cum extincto homine finitur! Aegyptii sane hominem sibi quem colant eligunt: illum unum propitiant, illum de omnibus consulunt, illi victimas caedunt. At ille, qui ceteris deus, sibi certe homo est, velit nolit: nec enim conscientiam suam decipit, si fallit alienam. Etiam principibus et regibus, non ut magnis et electis viris, sicut fas est, sed ut deis turpiter adulatio falsa blanditur, cum et praeclaro viro honor verius et optimo amor dulcius praebeatur. Sic eorum numen vocant, ad imagines supplicant, Genium, id est daemonem, implorant, et est eis tutius per Iouis Genium peierare quam regis.
"Cruces etiam nec colimus nec optamus. Vos plane, qui ligneos deos consecratis, cruces ligneas ut deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis. Nam et signa ipsa et cantabra et vexilla castrorum quid aliud quam inauratae cruces sunt et ornatae? Tropaea vestra victricia non tantum simplicis crucis faciem, verum et adfixi hominis imitantur. Signum sane crucis naturaliter visimus in navi, cum velis tumentibus vehitur, cum expansis palmulis labitur: et cum erigitur iugum, crucis signum est, et cum homo porrectis manibus deum pura mente veneratur. Ita signo crucis aut ratio naturalis innititur aut vestra religio formatur.

Notice: a cross (in Latin 'crucis') is in the shape of a man stretching his hands when adoring God.
Also, it appears that, on victorious trophies, a cross imitates a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it.

Cordially, Bernard
cora
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Re: did you know???

Post by cora »

To everybody:
I think I know something about it but it is complicated.
1. I know in Egypt the praying pose was standing upright with your arms outstretched. That comes from Egypt.
2. The word stauros still means stake. One upright piece of wood. There is also a verb with it. Paul uses both. It means that Jesus died on a stake.

Justin Martyr enters (again). Our philosopher keeps adding new things to the story. There are already a dozen or so.
I knew that the crucifixion story is based on a psalm. On a forgery in a psalm by a Christian. The forgery is still in our bible. The jewish bible where it comes from says something different. I once read an article by a jewish woman scholar, where she explained everything. Including the jewish characters. There is written: lions my hands and feet. They translate: as lions they attacked my hands and feet. Some Christian made of it: they PIERCED my hands and feet. That must have been Justin, because he mentions it. I guess that there the cross and the crucifixion image comes from. It is a forgery and it is not the truth. But it is used probably from Justin on. It is used in the gospels. The psalm is psalm 22, which the jews call the suffering psalm. IMO Justin did it, because he is inventing things all the time. That is why I call him crazy Justin.

Jesus still died on a stake. Only thanks to Justin we do not know that. I think that is a bit strange. Also basing the story on a psalm at all is very strange. It means IMO the story is not real, but written over from the OT. So what really happened? We will never know. But we are looking at a fake execution. Including dividing of clothes etc. How about the inerrability of the gospels? This is IMO a bad point for the gospels. If this is invented what more is?

greetings, Cora.
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