Does Richard Carrier ignore that some "Gnostics" were mythicists?

[robert j]

... An earthly crucifixion would be ipso facto conceived as a Roman crucifixion ...

In reality, the original concept was likely not well defined to begin with. He descended, he took on the likeness of a man, he was crucified. No doubt this was always vague, and perhaps always conceived of differently by different people. On earth, in heaven, in the ether, whatever... Whatever the case may have been, it was Isaiah 53 that narrated the event.

Yes, at least in Paul, the salvific suffering and death on account or our sins was apparently derived from Isaiah 53; and at least in part, the resurrection as well.

But also in Paul, having been hung on wood was presented as a redemptive act in a Jewish tradition to set aside the Jewish law, and was derived from Deuteronomy ---

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us; for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging upon wood (ξύλου)", so that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles … (Galatians 3:13-14).

These verses in Deuteronomy were conflated by Paul to construct his argument in Galatians ---

Accursed is every man whoever shall not adhere to all the words of this law … (Deuteronomy 27:26)

… for being cursed by God is every one hanging upon wood (ξύλου) … (Deuteronomy 21:23)

[Bernard Muller]

To Giuseppe,

Additional evidence that the crucifixion was in outer space is also found in 1 Peter 1:20:

He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake

....that has to be interpreted so:

He was chosen to be crucified before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake

You are arbitrarily adding words to 1 Peter 1:20 and you call that the compulsory interpretation.

Try to remove 'Synagogues' from Luke 12:11-12 and you gain a mythicist Logion:

“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

Now you are removing a word in order to facilitate your viewpoint.

Cordially, Bernard

[Giuseppe]

to Giuseppe,

Even they themselves acknowledge that it was the suffering Christ, and not Judas, who came to [the endurance of] passion. How, then, could Judas, the betrayer of Him who had to suffer for our salvation, be the type and image of that Æon who suffered?
But, in truth, the passion of Christ was neither similar to the passion of the Æon, nor did it take place in similar circumstances.

The passion of Christ was not similar to the passion of the Æon. That's because the Æon passion did not take place in similar circumstances: the Æon passion was associated with Judas.

Bernard, please don't elude the my argument, here. It is too much evident that the author of these words is contrasting by a simple denial what other rival Christians were preaching: that he passion of Christ was similar to the passion of the Æon and did take place in similar circumstances: in OUTER SPACE.

[Bernard Muller]

to Giuseppe,

The passion of Christ was similar to the passion of the Æon.

Not true: the passion of Christ was neither similar to the passion of the Æon,
That's the opposite of what you think being too much evident.

Definition for "neither":

used before the first of two (or occasionally more) alternatives that are being specified (the others being introduced by “nor”) to indicate that they are each untrue or each do not happen

Cordially, Bernard

[hakeem]

I find this whole argument over an earthly, fleshly crucifixion and a heavenly, 'outer space' crucifixion to miss the point. The point being that the NT has two crucifixion stories. The gospel crucifixion story is placed on terra-firma and the Pauline crucifixion story is based in heaven, in 'outer space'. i.e. Paul's crucifixion story is intellectual, it is philosophical not physical.

In the so-called Pauline writings the Lord Jesus was killed by the Jews.

1 Thessalonians 2

14-15 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men..

Christian writers that mention the Pauline Epistles and the crucifixion did claim that the Jews killed their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the son of God.

Tertullian's Answer to the Jews

... let the Jews recognise their own fate — a fate which they were constantly foretold as destined to incur after the advent of the Christ, on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him..

Hippolytus Treatise Against the Jews

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of that ancient fabrication of the calf? Was it on account of the idolatry of the people? Was it for the blood of the prophets? Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel? By no means, he says; for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them, and benignity; but it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.

The destruction of the Temple and the fall of the Jerusalem was believed by Christians to be the prophesied fate for Jews for having rejected and killed their Lord Jesus Christ, the Just One.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho XVI

Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him...

Irenaeus Against Heresies 4. XXXVI

For inasmuch as the former have rejected the Son of God, and cast Him out of the vineyard when they slew Him, God has justly rejected them, and given to the Gentiles outside the vineyard the fruits of its cultivation.

All NT stories of Jesus the crucified Christ were fabricated after the destruction of the Temple and the fall of Jerusalem or at least after c 70 CE.

[Bernard Muller]

to Giuseppe,

I disagree on this. An earthly crucifixion would be ipso facto conceived as a Roman crucifixion (hence easily used by apologists - I consider Ben one for that matter - as a kind of Trojan Horse of historicity?).

Ben did not say that: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3379&p=74902&hilit=trojan#p74902

Cordially, Bernard

[maryhelena]

I find this whole argument over an earthly, fleshly crucifixion and a heavenly, 'outer space' crucifixion to miss the point. The point being that the NT has two crucifixion stories. The gospel crucifixion story is placed on terra-firma and the Pauline crucifixion story is based in heaven, in 'outer space'. i.e. Paul's crucifixion story is intellectual, it is philosophical not physical.

In the so-called Pauline writings the Lord Jesus was killed by the Jews.

1 Thessalonians 2

14-15 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men..

Christian writers that mention the Pauline Epistles and the crucifixion did claim that the Jews killed their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the son of God.

Tertullian's Answer to the Jews

... let the Jews recognise their own fate — a fate which they were constantly foretold as destined to incur after the advent of the Christ, on account of the impiety with which they despised and slew Him..

Hippolytus Treatise Against the Jews

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of that ancient fabrication of the calf? Was it on account of the idolatry of the people? Was it for the blood of the prophets? Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel? By no means, he says; for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them, and benignity; but it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.

The destruction of the Temple and the fall of the Jerusalem was believed by Christians to be the prophesied fate for Jews for having rejected and killed their Lord Jesus Christ, the Just One.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho XVI

Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him...

Irenaeus Against Heresies 4. XXXVI

For inasmuch as the former have rejected the Son of God, and cast Him out of the vineyard when they slew Him, God has justly rejected them, and given to the Gentiles outside the vineyard the fruits of its cultivation.

All NT stories of Jesus the crucified Christ were fabricated after the destruction of the Temple and the fall of Jerusalem or at least after c 70 CE.

Yes, that's the NT story. The issue is not the story. The issue is how one reads the story. Read it literally ie as factual... Then put blood libel on the Jews..... bearing in mind what tragic historical consequences that reading gave rise to. Read the story as an allegory then one has an opportunity to not brand the the NT writers as anti Jews .

[hakeem]

... All NT stories of Jesus the crucified Christ were fabricated after the destruction of the Temple and the fall of Jerusalem or at least after c 70 CE.

Yes, that's the NT story. The issue is not the story. The issue is how one reads the story. Read it literally ie as factual... Then put blood libel on the Jews..... bearing in mind what tragic historical consequences that reading gave rise to. Read the story as an allegory then one has an opportunity to not brand the the NT writers as anti Jews .

Whether or not the NT story of the crucifixion of Jesus by the Jews is factual the teaching of Christians is that the Jews killed their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and it was for that very reason the Temple of their God was destroyed and Jerusalem was laid waste.

The Jewish Temple was really destroyed and Jerusalem was actually laid to waste and Christian writers literally stated that it was prophesied that the Jews would have killed their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ causing those events to occur.

[Eusebius' Church History

For the Scripture, in the Book of Daniel, having expressly mentioned a certain number of weeks until the coming of Christ, of which we have treated in other books, most clearly prophesies, that after the completion of those weeks the unction among the Jews should totally perish. And this, it has been clearly shown, was fulfilled at the time of the birth of our Saviour Jesus Christ. This has been necessarily premised by us as a proof of the correctness of the time..

It was after the destruction of the Temple and the fall of the Jerusalem c 70 CE that people, using the book of Daniel, invented stories that the Jews killed their own prophesied Messiah. Those stories later became the fundamental teachings of the new Christian cult.

[maryhelena]

... All NT stories of Jesus the crucified Christ were fabricated after the destruction of the Temple and the fall of Jerusalem or at least after c 70 CE.

Yes, that's the NT story. The issue is not the story. The issue is how one reads the story. Read it literally ie as factual... Then put blood libel on the Jews..... bearing in mind what tragic historical consequences that reading gave rise to. Read the story as an allegory then one has an opportunity to not brand the the NT writers as anti Jews .

Whether or not the NT story of the crucifixion of Jesus by the Jews is factual the teaching of Christians is that the Jews killed their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and it was for that very reason the Temple of their God was destroyed and Jerusalem was laid waste.

Well then, that's a pretty good reason not to give those Christians the time of day....

[cora]

Richard Carrier does not know so much about gnostics as he thinks. Gnostic Christianity came before catholic Christianity. Most of their scriptures will be therefore early. If the paper is from the 4th century that only means it was copied. The earliest and most important gnostic is Paul. Then Marcion. The gospel of John. Polycarp. All the communities of Paul. Their god, god the father, is in the universe. The son who was there from the beginning is in the universe (the Logos). The holy Spirit is in the universe. The son and the spirit can move, even down to earth. That is Gnosticism. It is about divine spirits. Is it mythicist enough? Carrier has a big mouth, but he knows not so much as he (and everybody?) thinks.