Though the information is quite sketchy, it seems that we can identify the relationships of various individual to Paul. I don't have it all mapped out, but I was wondering if anyone does?
For example, we know the following:
Barnabas was a fellow apostle with Paul
Marcion was the first to publish a collection of Paul's letters
Theudas was an alleged disciple of Paul's
Valentinus was a student of Theudas
Who are the other major figures that have relationships to Paul that we may know something about? (You can list "Luke" but we all know that Luke wasn't Luke :p)
The heirs of Paul...
Re: The heirs of Paul...
No-one can even provide actual evidence for a character called the apostle Paul so no-one can know anything about him.rgprice wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:43 am Though the information is quite sketchy, it seems that we can identify the relationships of various individual to Paul. I don't have it all mapped out, but I was wondering if anyone does?
For example, we know the following:
Barnabas was a fellow apostle with Paul
Marcion was the first to publish a collection of Paul's letters
Theudas was an alleged disciple of Paul's
Valentinus was a student of Theudas
Who are the other major figures that have relationships to Paul that we may know something about? (You can list "Luke" but we all know that Luke wasn't Luke :p)
Re: The heirs of Paul...
The anonymous author of "to the Hebrews" (titled misleadingly, since it was probably written as a "word of encouragement" to churches, but without mention of Jew or Gentile, circumcision or uncircumcision). Hebrews was arguably influenced by a collection of Paul's writings, including NT Galatians, and the text was included an early collection of Paul's letters (See, P46).rgprice wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:43 am Though the information is quite sketchy, it seems that we can identify the relationships of various individual to Paul. I don't have it all mapped out, but I was wondering if anyone does?
For example, we know the following:
Barnabas was a fellow apostle with Paul
Marcion was the first to publish a collection of Paul's letters
Theudas was an alleged disciple of Paul's
Valentinus was a student of Theudas
Who are the other major figures that have relationships to Paul that we may know something about? (You can list "Luke" but we all know that Luke wasn't Luke :p)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46
Re: The heirs of Paul...
In an Epistle attributed to Barnabas the author appears to know nothing of the so-called Paul as an early evangelist or letter writer.
The author of the Barnabas Epistle claimed that it was the chosen apostles of Jesus who preached the Gospel--no mention of Paul.
Barnabas 5:9
We now have multiple Christian writers who have no knowledge at all of Paul as an evangelist and an apostle.
The author of the Barnabas Epistle claimed that it was the chosen apostles of Jesus who preached the Gospel--no mention of Paul.
Barnabas 5:9
And when He chose His own apostles who were to proclaim His Gospel,
who that He might show that He came not to call the righteous but
sinners were sinners above every sin, then He manifested Himself
to be the Son of God.
who that He might show that He came not to call the righteous but
sinners were sinners above every sin, then He manifested Himself
to be the Son of God.
We now have multiple Christian writers who have no knowledge at all of Paul as an evangelist and an apostle.
Re: The heirs of Paul...
Fresh from my research (not for NT believers):
The originator of the NT is Irenaeus (very easy to find). Paul was replaced by him to the year 35. In that way he was made to confirm the real existence of Jesus. By knowing the brother of the Lord, which is an interpolation of course. For seeing that you must understand what Paul is preaching. Nobody seems to understand. At least Paul is preaching a god, and gods have no brothers on earth. Paul's letters are rather extensively forged to make him catholic. Paul was also replaced to take him away from Marcion, which worked splendidly until today.
Paul was the enemy together with Marcion. Paul was Marcion's teacher. Paul wrote the letters and Paul had "the gospel of the Lord". He left both to Marcion, like Marcion said himself. Paul and all his followers were gnostic. They had an other god than Jahweh, which seems to be forbidden according to the church of rome. Paul preached in the west of Turkey. In my search I had read book 1 of Irenaeus about all those gnostic sects. I know a website of somebody specialising in all these groups. He provided a map. I did not know what I saw. Almost all those groups are in the utmost west of Turkey. These are simply the groups Paul founded. So Irenaeus is condemning the gnostic communities founded by Paul. Because he loves Paul so much.
So there you have them, the people who knew Paul. There are no letters from that time, because he was there. The most interesting for us is John, the teacher of a gnostic community there. Paul probably asked him to write a gnostic gospel, since his own was not gnostic. John did and we know it as the gospel of John. The gospel of John is thoroughly gnostic (as again nobody seems to understand). I has been forged by Irenaeus but is still readable. The father of which is spoken all the time is the gnostic god. Jews say "the Lord". So, there are the people connected to Paul. All the rest is invented by Irenaeus, and forgery. The gospel of the Lord was spread by Marcion, the gospel of John was also spreading. At some point everything was there which the master-forger and lier of the church of rome needed to set up the catholic church and make the NT. He was ready in 185.
I get a little bit tired of hakeem. There are many descriptions of how Paul looked like, and he is even depicted in a mosaic. That is more than there is for Jesus or anybody from the NT. Paul and John are human beings. The rest are not. greetings, Cora.
The originator of the NT is Irenaeus (very easy to find). Paul was replaced by him to the year 35. In that way he was made to confirm the real existence of Jesus. By knowing the brother of the Lord, which is an interpolation of course. For seeing that you must understand what Paul is preaching. Nobody seems to understand. At least Paul is preaching a god, and gods have no brothers on earth. Paul's letters are rather extensively forged to make him catholic. Paul was also replaced to take him away from Marcion, which worked splendidly until today.
Paul was the enemy together with Marcion. Paul was Marcion's teacher. Paul wrote the letters and Paul had "the gospel of the Lord". He left both to Marcion, like Marcion said himself. Paul and all his followers were gnostic. They had an other god than Jahweh, which seems to be forbidden according to the church of rome. Paul preached in the west of Turkey. In my search I had read book 1 of Irenaeus about all those gnostic sects. I know a website of somebody specialising in all these groups. He provided a map. I did not know what I saw. Almost all those groups are in the utmost west of Turkey. These are simply the groups Paul founded. So Irenaeus is condemning the gnostic communities founded by Paul. Because he loves Paul so much.
So there you have them, the people who knew Paul. There are no letters from that time, because he was there. The most interesting for us is John, the teacher of a gnostic community there. Paul probably asked him to write a gnostic gospel, since his own was not gnostic. John did and we know it as the gospel of John. The gospel of John is thoroughly gnostic (as again nobody seems to understand). I has been forged by Irenaeus but is still readable. The father of which is spoken all the time is the gnostic god. Jews say "the Lord". So, there are the people connected to Paul. All the rest is invented by Irenaeus, and forgery. The gospel of the Lord was spread by Marcion, the gospel of John was also spreading. At some point everything was there which the master-forger and lier of the church of rome needed to set up the catholic church and make the NT. He was ready in 185.
I get a little bit tired of hakeem. There are many descriptions of how Paul looked like, and he is even depicted in a mosaic. That is more than there is for Jesus or anybody from the NT. Paul and John are human beings. The rest are not. greetings, Cora.
Re: The heirs of Paul...
Irenaeus "Against Heresies" is a corrupted writing. At least one of the authors of "Against Heresies" knew nothing of Paul, the Epistles, gLuke and Acts.cora wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:43 pm Fresh from my research (not for NT believers):
The originator of the NT is Irenaeus (very easy to find). Paul was replaced by him to the year 35. In that way he was made to confirm the real existence of Jesus. By knowing the brother of the Lord, which is an interpolation of course. For seeing that you must understand what Paul is preaching. Nobody seems to understand. At least Paul is preaching a god, and gods have no brothers on earth. Paul's letters are rather extensively forged to make him catholic. Paul was also replaced to take him away from Marcion, which worked splendidly until today.
It is virtually impossible to place Paul in the year 35 CE and still argue that Jesus was crucified when he was an old man about 50 years of age when in gLuke Jesus was crucified when he was about 30 years old.
The writers called Paul and the Epistles were invented long after the time of Justin or at least after c 178 CE.
Re: The heirs of Paul...
You sound like a needle stuck in a record. The (unforged) letters of Paul were brought to the church of rome in 145. Look on google.
Irenaeus took the gospel of John, which says that Jesus is almost 50. Pilatus is there too, so it only means that he was born 20 BC.
Irenaeus took the gospel of John, which says that Jesus is almost 50. Pilatus is there too, so it only means that he was born 20 BC.
-
Bernard Muller
- Posts: 3964
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
- Contact:
Re: The heirs of Paul...
to rgprice,
Luke (but most likely NOT the author of the gospel & Acts) is mentioned in Phm 1:24 "and so do Mark, Aristar'chus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers". Philemon is usually considered one of the genuine Paul's epistles.
And that Mark is most likely NOT the author of the gospel attributed to him.
Cordially, Bernard
Luke (but most likely NOT the author of the gospel & Acts) is mentioned in Phm 1:24 "and so do Mark, Aristar'chus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers". Philemon is usually considered one of the genuine Paul's epistles.
And that Mark is most likely NOT the author of the gospel attributed to him.
Cordially, Bernard
Re: The heirs of Paul...
Fyi,cora wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:29 pm You sound like a needle stuck in a record. The (unforged) letters of Paul were brought to the church of rome in 145. Look on google.
Irenaeus took the gospel of John, which says that Jesus is almost 50. Pilatus is there too, so it only means that he was born 20 BC.
Irenaeus doesn't mean Jesus was 50 before he died. He was talking about John's meeting with the elderly Jesus in Revelation 1.
-
Bernard Muller
- Posts: 3964
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
- Contact:
Re: The heirs of Paul...
to gryan,
Hebrews was included in Paul's letter because in antiquity Hebrews was considered (wrongly) as written by Paul.
About my research on Hebrews: http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html#hebrewsdate
Please note that Paul related to some of Hebrews items (such as pre-existence, Sacrifice, co-creator of the universe, atonement for sins, Son of God, firstborn, the heavenly Jerusalem, etc) as taken for granted, as already known & believed.
Cordially, Bernard
My research found that Paul was greatly influenced by Hebrews, which in turn was greatly influenced by Philo of Alexandria.The anonymous author of "to the Hebrews" (titled misleadingly, since it was probably written as a "word of encouragement" to churches, but without mention of Jew or Gentile, circumcision or uncircumcision). Hebrews was arguably influenced by a collection of Paul's writings, including NT Galatians, and the text was included an early collection of Paul's letters (See, P46).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46
Hebrews was included in Paul's letter because in antiquity Hebrews was considered (wrongly) as written by Paul.
About my research on Hebrews: http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html#hebrewsdate
other items in 'Hebrews' made their way in Paul's epistles, such as (from 'Hebrews'):
(pre-existence (explained) (1:1-3a,5-10,2:5-8), Sacrifice (explained) (1:3,5:8-9,7:27,9:11-15,10:1-14), (Jesus') blood (9:12,10:19,29), co-Creator of the universe (explained) (1:2,10), Moses' followers dying in the wilderness (3:16-17), home in heaven for Christians (12:22-23), atonement for sins (explained) (1:3,2:17,10:12), "Son of God" (explained) (1:5,8-9), Christians as seed and heirs of Abraham through the "promise" (2:16,6:13-17), the heavenly Jerusalem (12:22-23), Jesus offering himself for sacrifice for atonement of sins (explained) (7:27b,10:12), "at the right hand of God" (explained) (1:3,13,8:1,10:12,12:2), "firstborn" (explained) (1:6,12:23), Jesus interceding with God in behalf of Christians (explained) (7:25))
(pre-existence (explained) (1:1-3a,5-10,2:5-8), Sacrifice (explained) (1:3,5:8-9,7:27,9:11-15,10:1-14), (Jesus') blood (9:12,10:19,29), co-Creator of the universe (explained) (1:2,10), Moses' followers dying in the wilderness (3:16-17), home in heaven for Christians (12:22-23), atonement for sins (explained) (1:3,2:17,10:12), "Son of God" (explained) (1:5,8-9), Christians as seed and heirs of Abraham through the "promise" (2:16,6:13-17), the heavenly Jerusalem (12:22-23), Jesus offering himself for sacrifice for atonement of sins (explained) (7:27b,10:12), "at the right hand of God" (explained) (1:3,13,8:1,10:12,12:2), "firstborn" (explained) (1:6,12:23), Jesus interceding with God in behalf of Christians (explained) (7:25))
Please note that Paul related to some of Hebrews items (such as pre-existence, Sacrifice, co-creator of the universe, atonement for sins, Son of God, firstborn, the heavenly Jerusalem, etc) as taken for granted, as already known & believed.
Cordially, Bernard