"The living God"

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rgprice
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"The living God"

Post by rgprice »

I've heard this phrase so many times I never thought about it much, but certainly this has some significance?

Isaiah 37:17
Incline Your ear, Lord, and hear; open Your eyes, Lord, and see; and listen to all the words of Sennacherib, who sent them to taunt the living God.


Jeremiah 10:10
But the Lord is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King.


Jeremiah 23:36
For you will no longer remember the pronouncement of the Lord, because every person’s own word will become the pronouncement, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of armies, our God.


Daniel 6:20
The king began speaking and said to Daniel, “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you continually serve, been able to rescue you from the lions?”


2 Kings 19:4
Perhaps the Lord your God will hear all the words of Rabshakeh, whom his master the king of Assyria has sent to taunt the living God, and will avenge the words which the Lord your God has heard.

The Lord, Yahweh, was "the living god". How distinctive was this designation? To me it sounds like a holdover from Canaanite religion, where perhaps Yahweh was envisioned as a god of war who became incarnate and led battles or executed people or something along those lines, but I'm just speculating.

Of course a "living God" can be killed...
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MrMacSon
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Re: "The living God"

Post by MrMacSon »

In Isaiah 37:17 and 2 Kings 19:4, respectively, the words of Sennacherib and Rabshakeh are said to have been sent to taunt the living God.

Jeremiah 23:26 has reference to people distorting or perverting the words of the living God.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: "The living God"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:03 amThe Lord, Yahweh, was "the living god". How distinctive was this designation? To me it sounds like a holdover from Canaanite religion, where perhaps Yahweh was envisioned as a god of war who became incarnate and led battles or executed people or something along those lines, but I'm just speculating.

Of course a "living God" can be killed...
Good question. Similarly, I wonder about this parallel between one of the psalms and a Canaanite text having to do with the resurrection of Ba'al:

Ba'al and Môt, Column 3, lines 18-21: Even I may sit down and be at ease, and (my) soul within me may take its ease; for mightiest Baal is alive, for the prince lord of earth exists.

Psalm 18.46 Masoretic (18.47 Masoretic, 17.47 LXX): Yahweh lives, and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of my salvation.

So many aspects of Ba'al are explictly attributed to Yahweh, but not his resurrection out of the clutches of Môt, unless some of these little clues about Yahweh being alive are remnants of such a belief.
lsayre
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Re: "The living God"

Post by lsayre »

Did the Canaanites historically venerate Yahweh as a God? I've only heard of El and Baal in association with the Canaanites.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: "The living God"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

lsayre wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:10 am Did the Canaanites historically venerate Yahweh as a God? I've only heard of El and Baal in association with the Canaanites.
As far as I know, the Canaanites venerated Ba'al, not Yahweh. But Yahweh and Ba'al shared a lot of characteristics.
rgprice
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Re: "The living God"

Post by rgprice »

lsayre wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:10 am Did the Canaanites historically venerate Yahweh as a God? I've only heard of El and Baal in association with the Canaanites.
From what I can piece together, the Israelites were Canaanites. They worshiped Yahweh, along with other Canaanite gods. When they were taken over by the Persians they adopted a monotheist worship of Yahweh, and the Deuteronomists created the Jewish scriptures by revising existing Israelite/Canaanite religious texts to all be about Yahweh, those many of them were originally about El and Baal and Asherah, etc.
lsayre
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Re: "The living God"

Post by lsayre »

Perhaps Psalm 82 is the key to the identity of the deity now commonly referred to as Jesus. In Psalm 82 Yahweh appears to be a son (among many sons) of the Most High God. Everything hinges upon verse 8. If the "God" referred to in verse 8 is Yahweh, his assignment, as allotted to him by the Most High God (of the 'Council of Gods'), is to "arise" and "judge" and "inherit all of the nations of the earth" (which appear to have just been taken away from the other sons of the Most High God due to gross mismanagement and abuse). The same sons of whom were only moments before assigned to death, in a judgement passed down by the Most High God of the "Council". And perhaps leaving only Yahweh remaining as the Most High God's son.

The correlation to "The Living God" is linked to the aspect of sole survivorship among the sons of the Most High God.
rgprice
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Re: "The living God"

Post by rgprice »

I suspect that God in psalm 82 is El Elyon. The term "living god" must have some significance. Does it imply that he died and was brought back to life? Does it imply that he was once human, a former king? Does it just indicate that he was thought of as becoming incarnate and taking human form? This wouldn't be that unusual, other God were said to do this also, so why would that warrant the title "living god"? Ben has pointed out that Baal was said to be alive. Is the designation applied to Yahweh because it was just borrowed from Baal? What is the significance of "being alive"?

From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mot_(god) ... e_Passover
The Jewish tradition of Passover may have begun as a ritual connected with the myth of Mot killing Baal. Passover is held at the end of the rainy season, which could symbolize the death of Baal, as he was the god of rain. In the myth, Mot eats Baal like a lamb. During Passover, the priests eat lamb. However, the bones of the lamb are not broken, possibly signifying that Baal will return in the fall. During the festival, the priests prepare the body of the lamb in a similar fashion as Anat kills Mot. The festival may have started with the belief that by participating in the death of Baal, they would ensure that rains would not come during the spring, as rain in the spring could ruin the crops.

Now, the cycles of Baal and Mot are interesting, especially in light of 1 Cor 15.

Mot was the god of Death. He is apparently still represented in the scriptures, for exmaple:

Jeremiah 9:
20 Now hear the word of the Lord, you women,
And let your ears receive the word of His mouth;
Teach your daughters wailing,
And have every woman teach her neighbor a song of mourning.
21 For Death [MOT] has come up through our windows;
It has entered our palaces
To eliminate the children from the streets,
The young men from the public squares.
22 Speak, “This is what the Lord says:
‘The corpses of people will fall like dung on the open field,
And like the sheaf after the reaper,
But no one will gather them.’”


Hosea 13:
12 The guilt of Ephraim is wrapped up;
His sin is stored up.
13 The pains of childbirth come on him;
He is not a wise son,
For it is not the time that he should delay at the opening of the womb.
14 Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
Shall I redeem them from death?
Death [MOT], where are your thorns?
Sheol, where is your sting?
Compassion will be hidden from My sight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Cycl ... al_and_Mot
The final part of the Baʿal cycle is concerned with Baʿal's battle against Mot, a personification of Death.


1 Corinthians 15:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death [MOT?].

According to Margaret Barker, Gnosticism and early Christianity formed out of the memories of the traditions of pre-Deuteronomistic Israelite religion.

By the first century, surely much had been lost and confused. Perhaps the legends of Baal had been completely taken over by Yahweh.

When the text continues, two deities, presumably Gupn and Ugar arrive at El's abode, and they announce to him that they have been searching for Baʿal, but found him dead by the bank of the river of the dead. El then descends from his throne and sits on the ground, and mourns, strewing dust on his head, wears clothes of sackcloth, shaves off his beard and beats his chest in grief. Anat too wears sackcloth when she finds the fake dead body. Shapash aids Anat in burying Baʿal upon Mount Zephon, and Anat slaughters large numbers of oxen, sheep, goats, and asses as a memorial. Anat returns to El, and tells Athirat and her family (many of whom were on the side of Mot) that they can rejoice since Baʿal was dead. El asks Athirat who can he appoint in Baʿal's place, and she suggests Athtar. Athtar seats himself on Baʿal's throne but is not tall enough, confirming El's suspicion that he is too weak for the position.

When the text recontinues, Anat is searching in the netherworld for the shade of her brother. She demands that Mot restores him to her. However, Mot answers that he had searched for him over the earth, where he found him at the entrance of his domain, and then he simply ate him. Anat continues her search, until she loses patience, and she seizes Mot, and attacks him, attacking him with a sword, shaking him, burning him, crushing him, then throwing his remains to the birds. When the text continues, Anat returns to El and announces that Mot is dead. El then has a dream which tells him that Baʿal lives. Shortly after that, Baʿal returns. However, soon Mot comes back to life and complains to Baʿal of the treatment he has received. He demands that Baʿal surrender one of Mot's brothers. When Mot has returned, Baʿal sends messengers telling him that he will banish him, and that if he is hungry, he may eat the servants of Baʿal. However, this fails to please Mot, and so the two gods fight on Mount Zephon until exhausted. Shapash arrives and warns Mot that fighting Baʿal is useless, and that El is now on Baʿal's side and will overturn Mot's throne. Mot is afraid, and so declares that Baʿal is king.

Sounds a lot like the making of Paul's Jesus to me.

This would imply, as per Barker, that essentially, ancient Canaanite/Israelite mythology persisted outside the Temple priesthood within some Jewish circles, but was filtered through the mainstream religion. Barker points to Enoch literature as a representation of this phenomenon. Essentially the Enoch literature was a type of re-telling of the memory of pre-Deuteronomistic Israelite religious stories, though they had now been filtered through the ideas of mainstream Judaism.

The story of essentially, Jesus and Mot, is a similar situation, in which legends about Baal had become associated with Yahweh. We now have a legend based on the story of Baal (the original "living God") and Mot, which has been transformed into a story of Yahweh vs Death and filtered through the book of Isaiah.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: "The living God"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rgprice wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:46 amBarker points to Enoch literature as a representation of this phenomenon. Essentially the Enoch literature was a type of re-telling of the memory of pre-Deuteronomistic Israelite religious stories, though they had now been filtered through the ideas of mainstream Judaism.
I have been digging into the Enochic/Qumranic literature of late because of its potential for helping me trace such ideas. I really like a lot that Gabriele Boccaccini has to say about it.

Gabriele Boccaccini, BtEH, Figure 1 (Qumran Chain).png
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: "The living God"

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Gabriele Boccaccini, BtEH, Figure 2 (Middle Judaisms).png
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