The start of the Jesus story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote:The author of gJohn claimed the Comforter was the Holy Ghost and that his disciples could not receive the Holy Ghost unless he went away but he seems to have forgotten his own story and claimed the disciples received the Holy Ghost before he had gone away on the very same day that Jesus supposedly resurrected.

In any event, it is clear that the author of gJohn knew nothing at all about the stories of talking of tongues by the apostles and the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Acts of the Apostles and the so-called Pauline Epistles were composed after gJohn
davidmartin wrote:I missed that contradiction before, all this confusion over when the Spirit was made available convinces me the original, simplest story was that Jesus was bestowing the Spirit during his mission and it's as simple as that.
Where did you get your story that Jesus was bestowing the Spirit? Please explain how does one actually bestow a Spirit?
davidmartin wrote:Later it got worked into the theology that emerged and made dependent on the cross but leaving behind the clues to the original in various places. A Jesus who goes around baptising in Spirit means Christians existed prior to the cross, maybe that doesn't seem a big deal but it could well be that was what some opponents ('heretics') of the proto-orthodox were saying, which is why the point gets repeated a few times in both gJohn and Acts maybe
I don't know where you got your stories about Jesus baptising in the Spirit but in gMark, gMatthew and gLuke the story is that Jesus did not even want anyone to know he was Christ and did not want outsiders to understand him so that they would not be converted and their sins be forgiven.

Mark 4
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Mark 8
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him,Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

It is quite implausible that there would be people called Christians while they had no idea that the supposed Jesus was Christ and when it is claimed Jesus did not want people to be converted and have their sins forgiven.

gMark's Jesus did not come to start a new religion and give people the gifts of talking in tongues and interpretation.

Stories about talking in tongues, gifts of interpretation, thousands of believers in Jerusalem and Saul/Paul persecuting them in Acts and the Pauline Epistles are very late stories fabricated after gMark, gMatthew and gJohn.
hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

We can see that the Markan story is that his Jesus while alive preached the Gospel that the kingdom of God was at hand and that people must repent to be saved.

The Markan Jesus story gives little or no salvific meaning to his death and resurrection. The visitors to the burial site of the Markan Jesus didn’t even tell anyone he was raised from the dead.

The Markan Gospel of Jesus was later changed by gJohn, Acts of the Apostles and the so-called Pauline writers.

gMark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Mark 9:31
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day

.
In gMark once one repents he will be saved whether or not the Markan Jesus is killed or resurrect.
Now, look at gJohn . The Gospel has been altered. One must now believe that God sacrificed his son to receive salvation. In effect, the Johanine Jesus must be killed before people can be saved.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

.

We also see other changes in the Gospel in the so-called Pauline Epistles. The Pauline Jesus must die and then resurrect in order for one to be saved.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

It is clear that the Markan Gospel story has been mutilated by the authors of gJohn and the so-called Pauline Epistle which means that they must have been composed later than gMark.
davidmartin
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by davidmartin »

Yeah, i agree generally with that

except i think the 'repent to be saved' of Mark is also an addition to the base story cause i think there is a layer underneath the rewrites
in the original its getting some revelation of god that saves from guru jesus, like a personal experience of god that's it, then it was changed to repentance and more stuff added to it over time

as for gJohn what's good about it the final edit is sloppy. the redactor intrudes pretty obviously and you can see he's bringing it in-line to make it acceptable, so some earlier version existed and by extension whoever originated that probably believed some different stuff to the redactor

your theory on late date for paul epistle's is logical but it looks like early christianity was a chaotic melting pot of idea. trying to get the chronology seem like impossible task. you could have paul doing his thing in the usual time-frame and other folk disagreeing and writing mark any damn thing is possible. to me it's plain what happened from Acts. there was a ton of factions and breakaway churches and the Acts is one based around peter 'repent and be saved or go to hell' gospel teaming up with one based around paul. if jesus and his band of disciples had showed up in the 2nd century they'd have been condemned as heretics by these people thankfully, maybe that's the "good news" !
hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

There is a lot of evidence that the version of the NT Jesus story in gMark is the earliest and that subsequent authors of the NT altered the gMark story.

Look at gMark 8 and gMatthew 16 where it is easily seen that the author of gMatthew inserted other passages unknown to gMark.

gMark 8 gMatthew 16
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
123 456

It is seen that the author of gMatthew inserted the passage that Peter was to be the rock upon which the Church.would be built when no such story is found in gMark

But, look at the Epistle to the Galatians--the supposed Pauline author changes the story and now claims that Peter was committed by Jesus to preach to the circumcision and he was committed to preach to the uncircumcision when such a claim is not in either gMark or gMatthew.

Galatians 2
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

It is evident that the story of the so-called Paul that he was committed to preach to the uncircumcision and Peter to the circumcision is a very late story unknown to the authors of gMark and gMatthew but also gLuke, gJohn and Acts of the Apostles.
In Acts, the supposed character called Saul/Paul was actively engaged in preaching the Gospel to Jews.[the circumcision] in their synagogues.

In Damascus--Saul/Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues--Acts 9.20
in Salamis--Saul/Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues.--Acts 13.5
in Antioch--Saul Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues--Acts 13.14.
in Iconium--Saul/Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues--.Acts 14.1
in Thessalonica --Saul/Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues--.Acts 17.1
in Berea--Saul/Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues.--Acts 17.10
in Corinth--Saul/Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues--.Acts 18.4
in Ephesus--Saul/Paul preached to Jews in their synagogues--.Acts 18.19


The claim in Galatians 2 that the so-called Paul was committed to preach to the uncircumcision in the Epistle to the Galaitins is not only fabricated but was invented after Acts of the Apostles was already composed.
hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

In the so-called Pauline Epistles the writer boasts and guarantees that he did not get his Gospel from man, neither was taught by man but from revelations from the resurrected Jesus.


Galatians 1:11
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


But, the Pauline writer boasts too much.

The boaster has revealed when he really lived.

We will see before our very eyes which supposed Jesus revealed the story of the Eucharist to the boaster.
Will it be the Jesus in gMark, gMatthew or gLuke?

The Pauline boaster claimed in 1 Corinthians that he received some information about the ritual of the Eucharist from the resurrected Jesus however there are at least three versions--one in gMark, one in gMatthew and one in gLuke.
The following table shows excerpts from the Synoptics.

gMark 14 gMatthew 26 gLuke 22 1Corinthians 11
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
.
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

It is easily seen that it was the Jesus story about the Eucharist in gLuke that was used by the Pauline boaster under the guise that he was getting revelations from the resurrected Jesus.

The Pauline boaster had no revelations at all but was looking directly at gLuke.

It is claimed gLuke was written after c 70 CE, that is after the Pauline boaster was supposedly dead.

The Pauline boaster died in the 14th year of Nero c 68-69 CE according to the Church yet he was reading gLuke chapter 22.

But, now, tell me when was the first time was a Gospel attributed to Luke mentioned in Christian writings?

Is it not “Against Heresies” attributed to Irenaeus c 178 CE?

The Pauline boaster not only got his revelations from gLuke but was alive after gLuke was written.
davidmartin
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by davidmartin »

An observation - Luke is connected to Marcion and he is connected to the Pauline epistles. Luke is where you'd expect to find the similarity. One was inspired by the other makes sense
If Marcion was distributing his version of Luke together with the epistles he had the perfect opportunity to harmonise anything he wanted
It appears more likely to me Luke was first because Paul is so extremely focused on the heavenly Christ while the gospels are the other way around
hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

The story of Herod the tetrach divorcing the daughter of Aretas to marry Herodias and the execution of John the Baptist is found in the works of Josephus.

It is extremely important to understand that all the NT Gospels were composed at least after the writings of Josephus [at least after c 94 CE] since they contain stories which only are found in his writings.

There are many examples where the authors of the NT Gospels used the writings of Josephus but there is a story about, Herod the tetrach, Herodias and John the Baptist which clearly appears to show that the NT Synoptics are later than Josephus’ writings.

First look at Antiquities of the Jews 18.51-2. https://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm

In AJ 18.5.1 It is claimed that Herod [tetrarch of Galille] and Aretas went to war because this same Herod had planned to divorce his wife [Aretas’ daughter]. After having lost the war to Aretas, Herod then wrote to Tiberius who gave orders for Vitellius to capture Aretas or have his head cut-off.

In AJ 18.5.2 It is claimed John the Baptist was killed by Herod and that the Jews believed that God caused Herod to be defeated by Aretas because of the killing of John.

Now, look at the Synoptics , It can be easily seen that the authors of gMark, gMatthew and gLuke used the writings of Josephus to invent their version of the killing of John the Baptist.

Matthew 14 Mark 6 Luke Antiquities of the Jews 18
3
For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
17
For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
19
But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done
5.2 Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.

It is virtually certain that the NT Synoptics were composed after the 13th year of Domitian or no earlier than c 94 CE [after the composition of Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews].
Once it is understood that gLuke was written after c 94 CE then the author of so-called Pauline Epistles must have or most likely lived at least around that time since he used gLuke for his story of the ritual of the Eucharist.
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by Peter Kirby »

hakeem wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:16 pm The story of Herod the tetrach divorcing the daughter of Aretas to marry Herodias and the execution of John the Baptist is found in the works of Josephus.

It is extremely important to understand that all the NT Gospels were composed at least after the writings of Josephus [at least after c 94 CE] since they contain stories which only are found in his writings.

There are many examples where the authors of the NT Gospels used the writings of Josephus but there is a story about, Herod the tetrach, Herodias and John the Baptist which clearly appears to show that the NT Synoptics are later than Josephus’ writings.

First look at Antiquities of the Jews 18.51-2. https://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm

In AJ 18.5.1 It is claimed that Herod [tetrarch of Galille] and Aretas went to war because this same Herod had planned to divorce his wife [Aretas’ daughter]. After having lost the war to Aretas, Herod then wrote to Tiberius who gave orders for Vitellius to capture Aretas or have his head cut-off.

In AJ 18.5.2 It is claimed John the Baptist was killed by Herod and that the Jews believed that God caused Herod to be defeated by Aretas because of the killing of John.

Now, look at the Synoptics , It can be easily seen that the authors of gMark, gMatthew and gLuke used the writings of Josephus to invent their version of the killing of John the Baptist.

Matthew 14 Mark 6 Luke Antiquities of the Jews 18
3
For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
17
For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
19
But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done
5.2 Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.

It is virtually certain that the NT Synoptics were composed after the 13th year of Domitian or no earlier than c 94 CE [after the composition of Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews].
Once it is understood that gLuke was written after c 94 CE then the author of so-called Pauline Epistles must have or most likely lived at least around that time since he used gLuke for his story of the ritual of the Eucharist.
Both Josephus and the authors of the gospel texts could be aware of the same historical events (taking place in the first half of the first century), so there is no such certainty.
hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:49 pm
hakeem wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:16 pm The story of Herod the tetrach divorcing the daughter of Aretas to marry Herodias and the execution of John the Baptist is found in the works of Josephus.

It is extremely important to understand that all the NT Gospels were composed at least after the writings of Josephus [at least after c 94 CE] since they contain stories which only are found in his writings.

There are many examples where the authors of the NT Gospels used the writings of Josephus but there is a story about, Herod the tetrach, Herodias and John the Baptist which clearly appears to show that the NT Synoptics are later than Josephus’ writings.

First look at Antiquities of the Jews 18.51-2. https://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm

In AJ 18.5.1 It is claimed that Herod [tetrarch of Galille] and Aretas went to war because this same Herod had planned to divorce his wife [Aretas’ daughter]. After having lost the war to Aretas, Herod then wrote to Tiberius who gave orders for Vitellius to capture Aretas or have his head cut-off.

In AJ 18.5.2 It is claimed John the Baptist was killed by Herod and that the Jews believed that God caused Herod to be defeated by Aretas because of the killing of John.

Now, look at the Synoptics , It can be easily seen that the authors of gMark, gMatthew and gLuke used the writings of Josephus to invent their version of the killing of John the Baptist.

Matthew 14 Mark 6 Luke Antiquities of the Jews 18
3
For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
17
For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
19
But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done
5.2 Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.

It is virtually certain that the NT Synoptics were composed after the 13th year of Domitian or no earlier than c 94 CE [after the composition of Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews].
Once it is understood that gLuke was written after c 94 CE then the author of so-called Pauline Epistles must have or most likely lived at least around that time since he used gLuke for his story of the ritual of the Eucharist.
Both Josephus and the authors of the gospel texts could be aware of the same historical events (taking place in the first half of the first century), so there is no such certainty.
Perhaps you don't realise that the Gospels are not historical accounts of John the Baptist and the cause of his execution by Herod. The killing of John the Baptist by Herod had nothing whatsoever to do with Herod the tetrarch marrying to Philip's wife. Herodias was not Philip's wife and there is no mention whatsoever that the daughter of Herodias asked for the head of John the Baptist in the writings of Josephus.

Based on my research I am virtually certain that the NT Gospels and Epistles are all after the works of Josephus not just based on the John the Baptist story alone.
hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem »

Once the writings of Josephus are examined it is easily seen that gMark was fabricated after c 94 CE or at least after the writings of Antiquities of the Jews written in the 13th year of Domitian.

The Gospel called according to Mark contains characters and events that are only found in the writings of Josephus and specifically only in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews.

Look at the table below.

gMark Antiquities of the Jews 18
MK 15.1 Pilate
MK 1.6 John the Baptist
MK 6 The killing of John the Baptist by Herod
MK 6 Herod
MK 6 Herodias
MK 6 The daughter of Herodias
MK 6 Philip the brother of Herod
MK 6 The wife of Philip
AJ 18.3.1 --Pilate
AJ 18.5.2 John the Baptist
AJ 18.5.2 The killing of John the Baptist by Herod
AJ 18.2.1 Herod
AJ 18.5.1 Herodias
AJ 18.5.4 The daughter of Herodias
AJ 18.5. 4 Philip the brother of Herod
AJ 18.5.4 The wife of Philip
MK 6:20
For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him…
AJ 18.5.2 Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion..
Mark 6:25
And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
AJ 18.5.1 So Herod wrote about these affairs to Tiberius, who being very angry at the attempt made by Aretas, wrote to Vitellius to make war upon him, and either to take him alive, and bring him to him in bonds, or to kill him, and send him his head.

The story fabricated in gMark and other Gospels that the daughter of Herodias asked for the head of John the Baptist is a corruption of the story in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews where it was Tiberius who asked for the head of Aretas.

The supposed witnesses of gMark's Jesus story like Pilate, John the Baptist, Herod, Herodias and her daughter are all found in one book --the 18th book of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews.

In effect, gMark, gMatthew, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles and the so-called Pauline Epistles are all late writings most likely invented at least no earlier than c 94 CE.
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