The start of the Jesus story

[hakeem]

The claim of the Jerusalem Church with thousands of Jews is found in Acts of the Apostles. And not only were there thousands of Jewish believers but they were also persecuted by a character called Saul whose name was suddenly changed to Paul.

Now, if there was never any Jerusalem Church, if there were no Jewish believers of Jesus of Nazareth in the time of Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius and Nero then the NT stories about Jesus of Nazareth, the apostles, the thousands of converts and Saul/Paul are reduce to fiction.

Philo, a Jewish writer of antiquity, a contemporary of Tiberius and Gaius, mentioned events of the time, but although writing about Pilate he wrote nothing about a new religion where Jews were worshiping a Galilean as a God.

It is extremely important to understand the significance of the writings of Philo because this writer claimed that Pilate placed some “gilt shields” in the palace of Herod in the Holy City to honor Tiberius but the Jews when they found out went to Pilate to have them removed.

On Embassy to the Jews XXXVIII

.... the people, putting forward the four sons of the king, who were in no respect inferior to the kings themselves, in fortune or in rank, and his other descendants, and those magistrates who were among them at the time, entreated him to alter and to rectify the innovation which he had committed in respect of the shields[; and not to make any alteration in their national customs, which had hitherto been preserved without any interruption, without being in the least degree changed by any king of emperor…………...they cried out: 'Do not cause a sedition; do not make war upon us; do not destroy the peace which exists. The honour of the emperor is not identical with dishonour to the ancient laws; let it not be to you a pretence for heaping insult on our nation. Tiberius is not desirous that any of our laws or customs shall be destroyed…

As it can be seen in the writings of Philo the Jews did not worship men as Gods--not even the Emperor of Rome --in the very time of Pilate and the supposed Jesus of Nazareth.

And this event is also corroborated in the writings of Josephus where the Jews refused to worship Tiberius as a God in the time of Pilate and would rather die.

Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.1

…..Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed..

Both Philo and Josephus show that it would have been virtually impossible that there were thousands of Jews in the time of Pilate who would worship a man as a God much less a dead man who falsely claimed he would resurrect on the third day.

The teaching that a man called Jesus should be worshiped as a God by Jews was blasphemy ---a capital crime and punishable by death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _the_Torah

In addition, there is no known prophecy in Hebrew Scripture where it is claimed Jews should worship a dead man as God.

Based on the evidence the story in Acts of the Apostles with thousands of Jews worshiping a dead Galilean as a God and that Saul/Paul persecuted them is utter fiction.

It is not only that there were no Jewish worshippers of the dead Galilean but there was also no persecutor --call him Saul or Paul but he was nothing at all.

[MrMacSon]

re-worked / re-ordered >

The teaching that a man called Jesus should be worshiped as a God by Jews was blasphemy ---a capital crime and punishable by death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _the_Torah

• [perhaps] Sacrificing to gods other than YHWH
  
  • Leviticus 27:29
    No human beings who have been devoted to destruction can be ransomed; they shall be put to death.
  • Exodus 22:20
    Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the Lord alone, shall be devoted to destruction.

• Necromancy according to the Masoretic Text; specifically those who are masters over ghosts (Hebrew: Ba'al ob) and those who gain information from the dead (Hebrew: Yidde'oni) [Leviticus 20:27].
  • the practice of magic involving communication with the dead – either by summoning their spirits as apparitions, visions or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events, discover hidden knowledge, to bring someone back from the dead, or to use the dead as a weapon.

.. it would have been virtually impossible that there were thousands of Jews in the time of Pilate who would worship a man as a God much less a dead man who [supposedly] claimed he would resurrect on the third day.
.

• Good points

eta

• False Prophets
  • Deuteronomy 13:1–10
    6 If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, “Let us go worship other gods,” whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, 8 you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. 9 But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
  • Deuteronomy 17:2–7
    2 If there is found among you, in one of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, and transgresses his covenant 3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them—whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden— 4 and if it is reported to you or you hear of it, and you make a thorough inquiry, and the charge is proved true that such an abhorrent thing has occurred in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has committed this crime and you shall stone the man or woman to death. 6 On the evidence of two or three witnesses the death sentence shall be executed ...
  • Deuteronomy 18:20–22
    20 But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak—that prophet shall die ...
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _the_Torah

[Bernard Muller]

to Cora,

B, I think he was talking to you. Since you have nothing to say, you decide to divert the attention to someone else,

That was not an attempt to divert attention.

You obviously do not know from earlier discussions here that the name Jesus was invented by Justin Martyr, referring to the Jesus in exodus (the new name for Joshua in the LXX). So that is where the Jesus story starts.

Oh, yes, I know your present position but just because you claimed it, that does not mean I have to accept it. And how do you know Justin got the name Jesus from exodus? pure speculations again.

If I saw it right, he also replaced Chrestos with Christos. So that is where the Messiah story starts.

But if your vision is wrong, your case crashes miserably.
You must be referring to Marcion's corpus, the only thing you place before Justin's time. Justin had to replace Chrestos from Christos from some texts written before him, isn't it?

And he invented the cross and the crucifixion (before a stake). By forgery of a psalm. This psalm is subsequently used for the crucifixion stories of the gospels.

Speculation again. And you got a lot of negative feedback about that stake (and also for "Chrestos").

You simply think that ancient means true. It has been written so long ago, it MUST BE true. It MUST BE evidence.

No, I don't think everything that is ancient is true. But the more these sources are close to the facts, (such as Jesus' life or Paul's ministry) the more are the chance they contain some truthful statements (among fiction & embellishments).

without knowing anything else about the time, the developments, the religions, the surroundings, the motivations, that is not evidence, that is just lack of any sense of history, and therefore extraordinary stupid

I am not ignorant about these things, especially about the time, the development of a religion: Christianity, its surrounding and motivations. All of that in my website.

So what I do outside the sources, which is called historical study,

Oh, we discussed that already. Regardless of what you say, you used sources, not ancient for sure, but rather contemporary

Because it is information from outside the Christian scriptures,

But I got information also outside Christian scriptures, from Josephus, Tacitus' Annals, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger.

This stupidity is why nothing gets solved for a 100 years now.

But you think you solve it.

Cordially, Bernard

[hakeem]

The story in Acts of the Apostles that there were thousands of Jews worshiping a dead Galilean as a God is completely non-historical, far-fetched blasphemy and utter fiction

Not only was the stories of Jesus blasphemy against the belief of Jews but in effect the supposed apostles and Saul were involved in necromancy or witchcraft [a capital crime punishable by death].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy

Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrəmænsi/)[1][2] is the practice of magic involving communication with the dead – either by summoning their spirits as apparitions, visions or raising them bodily-- for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events, discover hidden knowledge, to bring someone back from the dead, or to use the dead as a weapon. Sometimes referred to as "Death Magic", the term may also sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.[3][4.

Now, read the very first chapter of Acts of the Apostles, it is claimed the apostles were in communication with the dead Galilean who told them of future events.

Acts 1.

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 1 is classic necromancy or witchcraft 101 where the supposed apostles are waiting in a house to hear from the dead Galilean.
Such activity, necromancy or witchcraft, is a capital crime and punishable by death in Hebrew writings.

Exodus 22:18-

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Micah 5:12

And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers

It wasn’t only the apostles who were engaged in witchcraft in Acts but also the character called Saul who suddenly became Paul.

Saul was in communication with the supposed dead Galilean called Jesus on his way to Damascus.

Look at Acts 9.

Acts 9

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

It is clear to me that Acts of the Apostles is not a product of history but of those who believed in necromancy or witchcraft. The mere fact the author of Acts claimed the apostles and Saul were in communication with the dead must mean the author actively believed in necromancy or witchcraft.

Now, tell me who was in communication with the alleged dead man the most?

Was it Saul or Paul?

[John2]

However, no 1st century Jewish writer mentioned a new Jewish religion where thousands of Jews were worshiping a dead man called Jesus as a God--not even one.

Philo and Josephus should have been the contemporaries of the apostles, Saul/Paul and the thousands of Jewish converts but there was nothing at all in their writings.

But Josephus does mention a new sect of Judaism that he calls the Fourth Philosophy, and he says that "the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree," which is consistent with the account in Acts of there having been thousands of Christians.

And since Jesus (or the literary figure called Jesus) is presented as being young ("the infection which spread thence among the younger sort, who were zealous for it") and living in the same time of and place as the Fourth Philosophy (6 CE to 73 CE, with Galilee as a hotbed) and sharing the same characteristics as Fourth Philosophers (e.g., rejection of the oral Torah, belief in "the Messiah" and "Pharisaic notions" like resurrection of the dead) and died like Fourth Philosophers ("They also do not value dying any kinds of death ... this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many"), I think Christianity was a faction of the Fourth Philosophy. Even Christian writings liken Christians to Fourth Philosophers (Acts 5:35-38).

And the writings of Josephus do mention Jesus, and while I think the TF as we have it is an interpolation (if perhaps not entirely), I think the James passage is consistent with the accounts of James' death in Christian writings. I also think Josephus mentions Saul and Peter, so in my view the elements of Christianity are there, they just aren't labelled as such by Josephus because to him all Jews of this persuasion were Fourth Philosophers. And I also think Jospehus' patron Epaphroditus could be the person of the same name who had previously followed Paul (and that he could have written or contributed to Acts).

So given that the James passage is consistent with Christian accounts of James' death and mentions Jesus "who is called Christ," and given that Josephus mentions other people who resemble Christians (Saul, Peter), and given that his patron could have been the person of the same name who had previously followed Paul, and given that Christianity resembles the Fourth Philosophy, I think Jesus and his followers existed during the first century CE like Christian writings say. Either that or someone invented them and made them look like Fourth Philosophers for some reason (if the reference to Jesus "who is called Christ" in the James passage is an interpolation).

[John2]

If Josephus had heard of the Jesus cult he would have most likely made a trial or inquired of it like he did with other Jewish sects or cults.

But Josephus did become a Fourth Philosopher (and even a general) during the 66-70 CE war, so in that respect he had "made a trial" of the Fourth Philosophy, and in my view Christianity was but one faction of it.

[hakeem]

However, no 1st century Jewish writer mentioned a new Jewish religion where thousands of Jews were worshiping a dead man called Jesus as a God--not even one.

Philo and Josephus should have been the contemporaries of the apostles, Saul/Paul and the thousands of Jewish converts but there was nothing at all in their writings.

But Josephus does mention a new sect of Judaism that he calls the Fourth Philosophy, and he says that "the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree," which is consistent with the account in Acts of there having been thousands of Christians.

Actually, Josephus wrote nothing about Jesus of Nazareth, the twelves apostles, Saul or Paul. If the whole nation was infected with Christianity then there would be no reason for Christians to forge the writings of Josephus, Seneca, Tacitus and invent authors for their NT books.

[John2]

However, no 1st century Jewish writer mentioned a new Jewish religion where thousands of Jews were worshiping a dead man called Jesus as a God--not even one.

Philo and Josephus should have been the contemporaries of the apostles, Saul/Paul and the thousands of Jewish converts but there was nothing at all in their writings.

But Josephus does mention a new sect of Judaism that he calls the Fourth Philosophy, and he says that "the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree," which is consistent with the account in Acts of there having been thousands of Christians.

Actually, Josephus wrote nothing about Jesus of Nazareth, the twelves apostles, Saul or Paul. If the whole nation was infected with Christianity then there would be no reason for Christians to forge the writings of Josephus, Seneca, Tacitus and invent authors for their NT books.

Josephus does mention Jesus but the references are disputed. And I think the one in the James passage is genuine and the one in the TF may not entirely be an interpolation (since it uses the same word for Jesus that Josephus uses elsewhere for Fourth Philosophers who believed in messianic passages in the OT, i.e., "wise man"). But the James passage alone is enough for me, and it is consistent with Christian accounts of James' death.

And I think the Saul that Josephus mentions resembles the Saul/Paul in Christian writings in that he lived at the same time as the Christian Saul/Paul and was related to the Herodians and was a violent persecutor like the Saul/Paul in Christian writings. And likewise the Simon that Josephus mentions in Ant. 19.7.4 resembles Simon Peter, in that he lived at the same time and place as Peter (Jerusalem, mid-first century CE) and was "very accurate in the knowledge of the law" and led an "ecclesia" (the same word for church) and gave a speech and had a run in with Agrippa in Caesarea like Peter does in Christian writings.

And the "whole nation" wasn't infected with Christianity any more than it was with Theudas' particular variety of the Fourth Philosophy, but rather the whole nation was broadly infected with the Fourth Philosophy, of which Jesus and his followers were but one of many factions.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,

I don't think you addressed his point ie. about there being no records of Jews worshipping *a Galilean person* in the 1st to early 2nd centuries

Why should I addressed every bits and pieces that hakeem wrote. And hakeem never ask me for comments.

About you point 4, 5 & 6, I already addressed that in earlier posts except for: "Tacitus namesake, Marcus Claudius Tacitus Augustus; (c. 200 – June 276), Roman Emperor briefly from 275 to 276, is said to have had a fascination with propagating works attributed to the earlier Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus."
Well Tacitus is in both names, but what does that prove, nothing.
Going back, to your point 4 b. "which you had also failed to include in your quote of hakeem's post"
Why should I had to include everything that hakeem wrote? and comment on it when not even being asked to do so?
And when in my posts, I asked many questions to mythicists like you. And most of the time, I got no response. Double standards I would say.

Now, you are answering for hakeem, implying hakeem never gave any arguments about connection(s) between the expected Messiah in the late 60's and the christos of Annals.

f. The connections are
i: there weren't two messiahs. There was only an account by Tacitus of a proposition that "rulers, coming from Judæa, were to acquire universal empire." (Histories 5.13)

And there is one Christos in Annals 15.4

ii: the account in Tacitus Annals 15.44 is of dubious veracity with respect to it being an actual account Jesus of Nazareth

Tacitus is dead on in his description of Christos (executed by Pilate under the reign of Tiberius) being the Jesus of Christians. It cannot be any other way.

iii: the proposition that the narratives about Jesus of Nazareth developed as a response to and/or in lieu of a failure of said "rulers from Judea" to eventuate.

Speculation

Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,

ie. 'reason (Logos) prevailed ... Reason (the Word, Logos) Himself...took shape and became man, and was called Jesus Christ"

That's mostly according to gJohn 1:14.

In these books, then, of the prophets, we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man's estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognised, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God.

I doubt very much that Justin meant what I underlined, which is impossible, for most of it, to find in the OT.
What I think Justin meant is only what I did not underline. Modern apologists claimed hundreds of occurrences of a Christ foretold to be coming (all of that being very indirect, vague, dubious, weak). So in Justin's times, the same could have been done.
And Justin added on "born of a virgin ... Son of God" to characterize Christ.
It is either that or Justin was lying big time. That option is possible.

Cordially, Bernard