The start of the Jesus story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:06 pm

Jax wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:04 pm
Thing is that I don't get the impression from Paul's letters that he was responsible for converting thousands of people to his Christ cult. A couple hundred maybe.
Same for me. Hundreds at most, probably not thousands.

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Jax
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by Jax » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:11 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:05 pm
I used to think that perhaps Justin did not know or like Paul. That is no longer a very attractive option for me. I think that his silence on Paul in the works known to us can be easily explained. But a lot of his argumentation seems to be based on Paul. It is more and more obvious the deeper one digs.
As Justin was contemporary with Marcion, I'm cool with this.

John2
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by John2 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:50 pm

Next, the other apostle James listed as the son of Alphaeus is scarcely mentioned. There is only three references to a character called James who maybe assumed to be the apostle James, son of Alphaeus--Acts 1.13, Acts 15.13 and Acts 21.18.

Again, all we know about the assumed apostle James, the son of Alphaeus, is that he was in Jerusalem and met Saul/Paul

But Paul calls someone named James "the Lord's brother" in Gal. 1:19 ("But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother"), and since the author(s) of Luke/Acts appear(s) to have used Mark, they were presumably aware that Jesus had a brother named James (Mk. 6:3: "Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James").

And Acts 1:14 notes that Jesus had brothers ("With one accord they all continued in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers"). And the beginning of Luke acknowledges the existence of earlier Christian writings, presumably including Mark since it appears to use it. So the author(s) of Luke/Acts was/were presumably aware of at least one Christian writing that says Jesus had a brother named James, and that is the James I think is "the Lord's brother" in Gal. 1:19. And if Jesus and James had different fathers and James' was someone named Alphaeus, that would amount to the same thing (and would fit with Joseph not being mentioned in Mk. 6:3).

hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:31 pm

John2 wrote:But Paul calls someone named James "the Lord's brother" in Gal. 1:19 ("But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother"), and since the author(s) of Luke/Acts appear(s) to have used Mark, they were presumably aware that Jesus had a brother named James (Mk. 6:3: "Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James").

And Acts 1:14 notes that Jesus had brothers ("With one accord they all continued in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers"). And the beginning of Luke acknowledges the existence of earlier Christian writings, presumably including Mark since it appears to use it. So the author(s) of Luke/Acts was/were presumably aware of at least one Christian writing that says Jesus had a brother named James, and that is the James I think is "the Lord's brother" in Gal. 1:19. And if Jesus and James had different fathers and James' was someone named Alphaeus, that would amount to the same thing.
You must have forgotten that the author of gLuke changed the location of post-resurrection meeting with Jesus from Galilee to Jerusalem. In gMark and gMatthew Jesus and the apostles lived in Galilee and he[ Jesus] told the disciples to meet him in Galilee after his resurrection. After Jesus was arrested the disciples ran away and went back to their hometown Galilee.

Mark 14:28---But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galile.

Matthew 26:32--But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Matthew 28:16--Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

John 21. 1---After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.


Luke 24:49---And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me

Galatians 1
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother

The change of the post-resurrection meeting from Galilee to Jerusalem by the authors of gLuke and Acts is extremely significant because it is claimed in the so-called Pauline Epistles that Paul met apostles Peter and James in Jerusalem after the resurrection which indicates the Pauline writer knew of post-resurrection stories found only in gLuke and Acts of the Apostles.

John2
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by John2 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:54 pm

But in Mt. 28:16-19 Jesus tells his followers to leave Galilee after they saw him (unless you suppose they were to "make disciples of all nations" only in Galilee).

Meanwhile, the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had designated. When they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations ..."

So wherever the resurrected Jesus is said to have appeared, I don't have any issue with his followers being in Jerusalem as per Paul and Acts.

hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:02 am

John2 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:54 pm
But in Mt. 28:16-19 Jesus tells his followers to leave Galilee after they saw him (unless you suppose they were to "make disciples of all nations" only in Galilee).

Meanwhile, the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had designated. When they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations ..."

So wherever the resurrected Jesus is said to have appeared, I don't have any issue with his followers being in Jerusalem as per Paul and Acts.
Again, before the resurrection Jesus told his disciples that he would meet them in Galilee after he was raised from the dead both in gMark and gMatthew. After the resurrection Jesus met the eleven disciples in Galilee as promised in gMatthew and also in gJohn.

It was the authors of gLuke and Acts of the Apostles who later fabricated another post-resurrection story and claimed the resurrected Jesus commanded the eleven to remain in Jerusalem to get Power from a Holy Ghost which they received and began preaching the Gospel in tongues.

There was no command from the resurrected Jesus in gMark, gMatthew and gJohn for the disciples to stay in Jerusalem for over 50 days to get power to talk in tongues to preach the Gospel.

Stories about the apostles and an apostle Paul preaching the Gospel in tongues are late stories composed after gMark, gMatthew, gJohn, Aristides' Apology and the works of Justin or at least after c 161 CE.

Justin Martyr writing c 138-161 CE, knew nothing at all of any Christian or Christian writer who preached the Gospel in tongues, apostle or not, in or out of Jerusalem.

John2
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by John2 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:51 pm

It was the authors of gLuke and Acts of the Apostles who later fabricated another post-resurrection story and claimed the resurrected Jesus commanded the eleven to remain in Jerusalem to get Power from a Holy Ghost which they received and began preaching the Gospel in tongues.

I think all accounts of Jesus' resurrection are made up. If Jesus told his followers to meet him in Galilee after his resurrection, then no one who went there saw him. Jesus did not actually resurrect and appear to any of his followers anywhere or tell his followers to stay in Jerusalem until they were "clothed with power from on high” or anything else. And no one claiming or who is said to have seen a resurrected Jesus in the NT letters actually saw him either.

Everyone made up whatever they said about Jesus' resurrection, just like followers of Rabbi Schneerson make up various things about him in the modern era. Rabbi Schneerson is not still alive or the Messiah and will not be the Messiah after a future resurrection, because he is dead and the concepts of the Messiah and resurrection are ridiculous. But people who knew him or know people who knew him are saying various things like these about him after his death, just like NT writers said various things about Jesus after his death.

That being said that, the things that Mark and Matthew say about Jesus' resurrection appearances (even if they actually happened) do not preclude the possibility that his followers were in Jerusalem as per Paul and Acts, because he tells them to leave Galilee. Nor does it preclude the possibility that Jesus' followers spoke in tongues under the power of the holy spirit as per Paul and Acts, given what Jesus says in Mt. 28:18-20:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.”

"All authority in heaven and on earth" surely includes speaking in tongues with the power of the holy spirit, even if Matthew wasn't aware of the idea. But as Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:5, not all Christians were into the idea of speaking in tongues ("I wish that all of you could speak in tongues"), so maybe that includes the authors of Mark and Matthew. Even Paul didn't see any benefit to it in and of itself ("Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air"). Maybe Mark and Matthew thought of it as "speaking into the air" and the author(s) of Luke/Acts had more regard for it. But in either case, no one actually spoke in tongues with the power of the holy spirit because it is a ridiculous concept. Everything about it in the NT is made up, but nothing Mark or Matthew say precludes the possibility that Jesus' followers spoke in tongues with the power of the holy spirit as per Paul and Luke/Acts.

cora
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by cora » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:03 pm

Speaking in tongues does not mean different languages. It means religious extasy when people shout intelligible things. Paul did not like it. Irenaeus gave it even a different meaning in Acts, he did not like it too.

The Apology of Aristides must GO. I looked this man up twice. He did not write an Apology. It is a fake. The contents and diverse words show that it must have been written after 170, maybe even after 200. The first Christian writer is Justin.

cora
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by cora » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:21 pm

The letter 1 Clemens appeared in Rome in 165. Nobody knew what it was. Thank god Irenaeus came by, and he knew it, Clemens from 96. Clemens does not exist. He comes from a list Irenaeus made (invented). He knew it exactly, because he had written it himself. The year was 165.

hakeem
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by hakeem » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:57 pm

hakeem wrote:It was the authors of gLuke and Acts of the Apostles who later fabricated another post-resurrection story and claimed the resurrected Jesus commanded the eleven to remain in Jerusalem to get Power from a Holy Ghost which they received and began preaching the Gospel in tongues.
John2 wrote:I think all accounts of Jesus' resurrection are made up. If Jesus told his followers to meet him in Galilee after his resurrection, then no one who went there saw him. Jesus did not actually resurrect and appear to any of his followers anywhere or tell his followers to stay in Jerusalem until they were "clothed with power from on high” or anything else. And no one claiming or who is said to have seen a resurrected Jesus in the NT letters actually saw him either.
You seem to have gone off on a tangent.

I have not claimed the post-resurrection stories are historical accounts. I am dealing specifically with the chronology of NT writings. gLuke, Acts of the Apostles, and the Pauline Epistles post-resurrection stories are later than those in gMark, gMatthew and gJohn.

The authors of gMark, gMatthew and gJohn did not know the story that the disciples were commanded by the resurrected Jesus to stay in Jerusalem to get power from a Ghost in order to preach the Gospel in tongues.

In gLuke and Acts the apostles could never have been able to preach the Gospel, [they would be powerless] without first staying in Jerusalem to get filled with the Ghost to preach in tongues.

All NT tongue talking stories and being filled by a Ghost are very late and unknown by many Christian writers up to the late 2nd century.

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