TF Resource

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

TF Resource

Post by DCHindley »

Just went over this compendium of different sources for the TF, in both English Translation and Original Greek or Latin:

Key
Source/Text (Common English Translations, from US ANF series and NPNF series II mainly, but some may be translations by 20th century AD critics)
Josephus: Ca. 95 CE. Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 §63-64 (Greek), textus receptus.
Origen: Late 2nd early 3rd century CE. On Matthew 10.17 (Greek). The discussion is about Josephus attributing the cause of the destruction of city & temple to the death of James the Just as described in Antiquities 20.
Origen: Late 2nd early 3rd century CE. Against Celsus 1.47 (Greek).
Origen: Against Celsus 2.13 (century III)
Origen: Early 3rd century CE. Against Celsus 2.13 (Greek)
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Demonstration of the Gospel 3.5.105-106 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is not Samuel Lees' E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the original Greek)
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is Samuel Lees' 1843 E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the Theophany 5.44 (original Greek lost).
Pseudo-Gregory of Nyssa: Allegedly century IV by the real Gregory, but actually century IX. On the Cognition of God (Greek)
Anonymous: 4th century CE. (a.k.a. Hegesippus, Pseudo-Hegesippus, and sometimes attributed to Ambrose, whose style it resembles, but should be considered anonymous) On the Downfall of Jerusalem 2.12 (Greek)
Jerome: 5th century CE. On Famous Men 13 (Latin).
Jerome: Anonymous Greek translation of On Famous Men 13. (Greek)
Rufinus: 5th century CE. Latin translation of History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Latin).
Isidore of Pelusium: 5th century CE. Letters, book 4, epistle 225 (Greek).
Sozomen: 5th century CE. History of the Church 1.1.5 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Against the Jews 10 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Religious Dialogue at the Sassanid Court (Greek).
Oecumenius: 6th century CE. Commentary on the Apocalypse 88 (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Chronicon (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Anonymous compiler of Chronicon Breve (Greek).
Malalas, John: 9th century CE. Chronography 10 (Greek).
Haimo of Auxerre: 9th century CE. Epitome of Sacred History 1.13 (Latin).
Agapius bp. Of Heirapolis (Mahboub of Menbidj): 10th century CE. Kitab al-ʻunvan = universal history. (Original was Arabic) Roger Pearce funded ET of the T.F. citation in Vasiliev's 1910-1915 French tr of the Florence ms.
The Suda: 10th century CE. Lexicon iota 503 (Greek).
Constantine Porphyrogenitus: 10th century CE. 7th century CE?? On Virtues and Vices 1.84 (Greek).
Symeon Logothetes: 10th century CE. Chronicon 59 (Greek).
Leo Grammaticus: 11th century CE. Chronographia (Greek).
Cedrenus, George: 11th century CE. Compendium of History (Greek).
Zonoras, John: 11th or 12th century CE. Epitome of History (Greek).
Michael the Syrian: 12th century CE. Scholomo Pines' English translation of Chronicle (Syriac), page 26.
Glycas, Michael: 12th century CE. Annals (Greek)
Comestor, Peter: 12th century CE. Scholastic History (Latin)
Salisbury, John: 12th century CE. Polycraticus 2.9 (Latin)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Martino Diez' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in ms. Paris ar. 4729)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Schlomo Pines' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in Paris BNF ar. 294, f.162v-163r). He was convinced that this was a citation from Agapius.

A MS Excel (xlsx) file with the entire database is here:
Use as you like, but please acknowledge that I compiled and reformatted them and added new 20th century scholars, warts and all (and there will be warts). I have left it in MS Excel 2019 format (.xlsx) because that is the spreadsheet format I use from my copy of MS Office. If you do not have the ability to read .xlsx files, I can save it as an Excel 98/2003 xls file, which most spreadsheet programs can at least open up. A PDF was impractical, as it may not be easy to navigate (there are 500 cells in the Excel sheet, with frozen panes).

Yes, I got a lot of these texts from Ben's Text Excavation website, but also from BibleWorks 8 database files, some of which were user-defined data sets. The BW user files were in turn drawn from public domain English (mainly from authors featured in the ANF American series & NPNF series II). In copyright Greek and Latin Texts were used by permission (I hope). The modern stuff includes S Pines and a translation of "Agapius" in the Tertullian.org website and elsewhere.

Sorry to those for whom this is not your cup of tea. However, for those interested in examining the TF issue you got to have a good idea of the sources, their relative dates, and see the source languages (except Syriac or Slavonic). These are intended as guides for those reading scholarly discussions of these texts. They are assuming you already know these things, so please refrain from kneejerk reactions based on hunches. A lot of what we think we know is, well, wrong ... :o

DCH

Edit: removed reference to Ben Smith's Text Excavation for source for the translation of the Theophany fron Syriac.
Last edited by DCHindley on Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1341
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: TF Resource

Post by Ken Olson »

The GCS volume of Eusebius Werke containing Hugo Gressman's edition of the Theophanie is online here:

https://archive.org/details/diegriechischen00religoog
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: TF Resource

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 amTheophany 5.44. (this is not Samuel Lees' E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the original Greek, as stated on Ben's Text Excavation web site. Ben do you have access to a later, revised, edition?)
Can you give me the link to the page on my site where I attribute it to Samuel Lee? Not finding it.
User avatar
Ken Olson
Posts: 1341
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: TF Resource

Post by Ken Olson »

Ben,

I think it's this (Eusebius 3):

http://www.textexcavation.com/anatestimonium.html#eus3

"Pilate put a cross on his head" is not in Lee, but the text looks like Lee with modifications from Whealey, "The Testimonium in Syriac and Arabic" (NTS 2008) 579, 589, or from Schlomo Pines, Ana Arabic Version of the Testimonium (1971) 25.
Last edited by Ken Olson on Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: TF Resource

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:50 am Ben,

I think it's this (Eusebius 3):

http://www.textexcavation.com/anatestimonium.html#eus3

"Pilate put a cross on his head" is not in Lee, but the text looks like Lee with modifications from Whealey, "The Testimonium in Syriac and Arabic" (NTS 2008).
It may well be, but it sounded like David was saying that I attributed the translation to Lee, whereas it appears to me that I did not attribute it to anybody. (I thought it might be Pines, but a quick check reveals that, while it is closer to Pines in some respects than to Lee, it is still not a perfect match. It has been way too long for me to remember for sure, and my earliest notes, the bulk of which eventually made up my website, were not great about keeping track of all proper attributions, unfortunately.)
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1603
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Say It Ain't So Joe

Post by JoeWallack »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 am Just went over this compendium of different sources for the TF, in both English Translation and Original Greek or Latin:

Key
Source/Text (Common English Translations, from US ANF series and NPNF series II mainly, but some may be translations by 20th century AD critics)
Josephus: Ca. 95 CE. Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 §63-64 (Greek), textus receptus.
Origen: Late 2nd early 3rd century CE. On Matthew 10.17 (Greek). The discussion is about Josephus attributing the cause of the destruction of city & temple to the death of James the Just as described in Antiquities 20.
Origen: Late 2nd early 3rd century CE. Against Celsus 1.47 (Greek).
Origen: Against Celsus 2.13 (century III)
Origen: Early 3rd century CE. Against Celsus 2.13 (Greek)
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Demonstration of the Gospel 3.5.105-106 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is not Samuel Lees' E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the original Greek, as stated on Ben's Text Excavation web site. Ben do you have access to a later, revised, edition?)
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is Samuel Lees' 1843 E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the Theophany 5.44 (original Greek lost).
Pseudo-Gregory of Nyssa: Allegedly century IV by the real Gregory, but actually century IX. On the Cognition of God (Greek)
Anonymous: 4th century CE. (a.k.a. Hegesippus, Pseudo-Hegesippus, and sometimes attributed to Ambrose, whose style it resembles, but should be considered anonymous) On the Downfall of Jerusalem 2.12 (Greek)
Jerome: 5th century CE. On Famous Men 13 (Latin).
Jerome: Anonymous Greek translation of On Famous Men 13. (Greek)
Rufinus: 5th century CE. Latin translation of History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Latin).
Isidore of Pelusium: 5th century CE. Letters, book 4, epistle 225 (Greek).
Sozomen: 5th century CE. History of the Church 1.1.5 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Against the Jews 10 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Religious Dialogue at the Sassanid Court (Greek).
Oecumenius: 6th century CE. Commentary on the Apocalypse 88 (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Chronicon (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Anonymous compiler of Chronicon Breve (Greek).
Malalas, John: 9th century CE. Chronography 10 (Greek).
Haimo of Auxerre: 9th century CE. Epitome of Sacred History 1.13 (Latin).
Agapius bp. Of Heirapolis (Mahboub of Menbidj): 10th century CE. Kitab al-ʻunvan = universal history. (Original was Arabic) Roger Pearce funded ET of the T.F. citation in Vasiliev's 1910-1915 French tr of the Florence ms.
The Suda: 10th century CE. Lexicon iota 503 (Greek).
Constantine Porphyrogenitus: 10th century CE. 7th century CE?? On Virtues and Vices 1.84 (Greek).
Symeon Logothetes: 10th century CE. Chronicon 59 (Greek).
Leo Grammaticus: 11th century CE. Chronographia (Greek).
Cedrenus, George: 11th century CE. Compendium of History (Greek).
Zonoras, John: 11th or 12th century CE. Epitome of History (Greek).
Michael the Syrian: 12th century CE. Scholomo Pines' English translation of Chronicle (Syriac), page 26.
Glycas, Michael: 12th century CE. Annals (Greek)
Comestor, Peter: 12th century CE. Scholastic History (Latin)
Salisbury, John: 12th century CE. Polycraticus 2.9 (Latin)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Martino Diez' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in ms. Paris ar. 4729)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Schlomo Pines' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in Paris BNF ar. 294, f.162v-163r). He was convinced that this was a citation from Agapius.

A MS Excel (xlsx) file with the entire database is here:

Ben's 2016 list of TF witnesses updated by DCHindley 2017-11-20, reformatted 2021-03-21.xlsx

Use as you like, but please acknowledge that I compiled and reformatted them and added new 20th century scholars, warts and all (and there will be warts). I have left it in MS Excel 2019 format (.xlsx) because that is the spreadsheet format I use from my copy of MS Office. If you do not have the ability to read .xlsx files, I can save it as an Excel 98/2003 xls file, which most spreadsheet programs can at least open up. A PDF was impractical, as it may not be easy to navigate (there are 500 cells in the Excel sheet, with frozen panes).

Yes, I got a lot of these texts from Ben's Text Excavation website, but also from BibleWorks 8 database files, some of which were user-defined data sets. The BW user files were in turn drawn from public domain English (mainly from authors featured in the ANF American series & NPNF series II). In copyright Greek and Latin Texts were used by permission (I hope). The modern stuff includes S Pines and a translation of "Agapius" in the Tertullian.org website and elsewhere.

Sorry to those for whom this is not your cup of tea. However, for those interested in examining the TF issue you got to have a good idea of the sources, their relative dates, and see the source languages (except Syriac or Slavonic). These are intended as guides for those reading scholarly discussions of these texts. They are assuming you already know these things, so please refrain from kneejerk reactions based on hunches. A lot of what we think we know is, well, wrong ... :o

DCH
JW:
Josippon
The author of the book of Josippon, following his sources, mentions John the Baptist, but he refers neither to Jesus nor to the beginnings of Christianity.
In absolute terms Josippon has little evidential weight for the original/lack of TF in Josephus but in relative terms it has some weight compared to most/all of the list above and therefore should always be mentioned in the discussion of the likelihood of the original/lack of the TF.


Josephus

STORY, n. A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

Has There Ever Been Colonialization, Genocide and an Endless Series of Crimes Against the Universe in Modern Israel?
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: TF Resource

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:09 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:50 am Ben,

I think it's this (Eusebius 3):

http://www.textexcavation.com/anatestimonium.html#eus3

"Pilate put a cross on his head" is not in Lee, but the text looks like Lee with modifications from Whealey, "The Testimonium in Syriac and Arabic" (NTS 2008).
It may well be, but it sounded like David was saying that I attributed the translation to Lee, whereas it appears to me that I did not attribute it to anybody. (I thought it might be Pines, but a quick check reveals that, while it is closer to Pines in some respects than to Lee, it is still not a perfect match. It has been way too long for me to remember for sure, and my earliest notes, the bulk of which eventually made up my website, were not great about keeping track of all proper attributions, unfortunately.)
Hi Ben,

There was a discussion about that when I first posted the table in 2016:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2812&p=62927&hilit= ... ses#p62927

You'll notice I edited the post to remove reference to your Site.

I ended up placing Lee's ET next to the one that used to be on your site in 2016. From what is below, I think I found Lee's English translation on Roger Pearce's Tertullian.org site. Ahh, now I see it, right where you said it was above. :oops:

I probably should have removed that first column for the Theophany ET, as no one has figured out where it came from, considering I did finally have access to Lee's ET by 2017. Again, as always, good stuff!

Ken Olson had also posted a link to Lee's ET of the Theophany at Roger Pearce's Tertullian.org website in 2019.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5106&p=99764&hilit= ... any#p99764

DCH
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: TF Resource

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:40 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:09 pm
Ken Olson wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:50 am Ben,

I think it's this (Eusebius 3):

http://www.textexcavation.com/anatestimonium.html#eus3

"Pilate put a cross on his head" is not in Lee, but the text looks like Lee with modifications from Whealey, "The Testimonium in Syriac and Arabic" (NTS 2008).
It may well be, but it sounded like David was saying that I attributed the translation to Lee, whereas it appears to me that I did not attribute it to anybody. (I thought it might be Pines, but a quick check reveals that, while it is closer to Pines in some respects than to Lee, it is still not a perfect match. It has been way too long for me to remember for sure, and my earliest notes, the bulk of which eventually made up my website, were not great about keeping track of all proper attributions, unfortunately.)
There was a discussion about that when I first posted the table in 2016:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2812&p=62927&hilit= ... ses#p62927

You'll notice I edited the post to remove reference to your Site.
Ah, okay. I remember that discussion now. Thanks.
It looks like you may have subsequently updated your web site as I no longer see a link to Eusebius' *Theophany* under "Eusebius."
Possibly, but I am updating my site now only to correct the most glaring of errors, and I am not sure what would have prompted me to remove the Theophany from my original Testimonium page. At any rate, the Theophany passage is still on my interface page: http://textexcavation.com/testimoniuminterface.html.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Say It Ain't So Joe

Post by DCHindley »

JoeWallack wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:00 pm
DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 am
Key
Source/Text (Common English Translations, from US ANF series and NPNF series II mainly, but some may be translations by 20th century AD critics)
Josephus: Ca. 95 CE. Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 §63-64 (Greek), textus receptus.
Anonymous: 4th century CE. (a.k.a. Hegesippus, Pseudo-Hegesippus, and sometimes attributed to Ambrose, whose style it resembles, but should be considered anonymous) On the Downfall of Jerusalem 2.12 (Greek)

JW:
Josippon
The author of the book of Josippon, following his sources, mentions John the Baptist, but he refers neither to Jesus nor to the beginnings of Christianity.

In absolute terms Josippon has little evidential weight for the original/lack of TF in Josephus but in relative terms it has some weight compared to most/all of the list above and therefore should always be mentioned in the discussion of the likelihood of the original/lack of the TF.
Sorry, but I prefer not to add my value judgements the sources compared here in the spreadsheet, except here and there when I might comment about methodology. They are just sources for comparison.

Thanks for the attempt to drag me into a political discussion about Israel & Palestinians, but I must politely decline. Of course, you know how I feel about that from posts going way back onto other forums. I also know what you think, from reading some of your posts. We will just have to agree to disagree. :confusedsmiley:

DCH
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2843
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: TF Resource

Post by andrewcriddle »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 am Just went over this compendium of different sources for the TF, in both English Translation and Original Greek or Latin:

Key
Source/Text (Common English Translations, from US ANF series and NPNF series II mainly, but some may be translations by 20th century AD critics)
Josephus: Ca. 95 CE. Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 §63-64 (Greek), textus receptus.
Origen: Late 2nd early 3rd century CE. On Matthew 10.17 (Greek). The discussion is about Josephus attributing the cause of the destruction of city & temple to the death of James the Just as described in Antiquities 20.
Origen: Late 2nd early 3rd century CE. Against Celsus 1.47 (Greek).
Origen: Against Celsus 2.13 (century III)
Origen: Early 3rd century CE. Against Celsus 2.13 (Greek)
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Demonstration of the Gospel 3.5.105-106 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is not Samuel Lees' E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the original Greek)
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is Samuel Lees' 1843 E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the Theophany 5.44 (original Greek lost).
Pseudo-Gregory of Nyssa: Allegedly century IV by the real Gregory, but actually century IX. On the Cognition of God (Greek)
Anonymous: 4th century CE. (a.k.a. Hegesippus, Pseudo-Hegesippus, and sometimes attributed to Ambrose, whose style it resembles, but should be considered anonymous) On the Downfall of Jerusalem 2.12 (Greek)
Jerome: 5th century CE. On Famous Men 13 (Latin).
Jerome: Anonymous Greek translation of On Famous Men 13. (Greek)
Rufinus: 5th century CE. Latin translation of History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Latin).
Isidore of Pelusium: 5th century CE. Letters, book 4, epistle 225 (Greek).
Sozomen: 5th century CE. History of the Church 1.1.5 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Against the Jews 10 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Religious Dialogue at the Sassanid Court (Greek).
Oecumenius: 6th century CE. Commentary on the Apocalypse 88 (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Chronicon (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Anonymous compiler of Chronicon Breve (Greek).
Malalas, John: 9th century CE. Chronography 10 (Greek).
Haimo of Auxerre: 9th century CE. Epitome of Sacred History 1.13 (Latin).
Agapius bp. Of Heirapolis (Mahboub of Menbidj): 10th century CE. Kitab al-ʻunvan = universal history. (Original was Arabic) Roger Pearce funded ET of the T.F. citation in Vasiliev's 1910-1915 French tr of the Florence ms.
The Suda: 10th century CE. Lexicon iota 503 (Greek).
Constantine Porphyrogenitus: 10th century CE. 7th century CE?? On Virtues and Vices 1.84 (Greek).
Symeon Logothetes: 10th century CE. Chronicon 59 (Greek).
Leo Grammaticus: 11th century CE. Chronographia (Greek).
Cedrenus, George: 11th century CE. Compendium of History (Greek).
Zonoras, John: 11th or 12th century CE. Epitome of History (Greek).
Michael the Syrian: 12th century CE. Scholomo Pines' English translation of Chronicle (Syriac), page 26.
Glycas, Michael: 12th century CE. Annals (Greek)
Comestor, Peter: 12th century CE. Scholastic History (Latin)
Salisbury, John: 12th century CE. Polycraticus 2.9 (Latin)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Martino Diez' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in ms. Paris ar. 4729)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Schlomo Pines' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in Paris BNF ar. 294, f.162v-163r). He was convinced that this was a citation from Agapius.

Anonymous: 4th century CE. (a.k.a. Hegesippus, Pseudo-Hegesippus, and sometimes attributed to Ambrose, whose style it resembles, but should be considered anonymous) On the Downfall of Jerusalem 2.12 (Greek)

Actually On the Downfall of Jerusalem is Latin not Greek.

Andrew Criddle
Post Reply