TF Resource

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hakeem
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Re: TF Resource

Post by hakeem »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 am Just went over this compendium of different sources for the TF, in both English Translation and Original Greek or Latin:

Key
Source/Text (Common English Translations, from US ANF series and NPNF series II mainly, but some may be translations by 20th century AD critics)
Josephus: Ca. 95 CE. Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 §63-64 (Greek), textus receptus.
---------------------------- ----------------------------
----------------------------------- -----------------------------------
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Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Demonstration of the Gospel 3.5.105-106 (Greek).
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is not Samuel Lees' E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the original Greek)
Eusebius: Early-mid 4th century CE. Theophany 5.44. (this is Samuel Lees' 1843 E.T. of the anonymous Syriac translation of the Theophany 5.44 (original Greek lost).
Pseudo-Gregory of Nyssa: Allegedly century IV by the real Gregory, but actually century IX. On the Cognition of God (Greek)
Anonymous: 4th century CE. (a.k.a. Hegesippus, Pseudo-Hegesippus, and sometimes attributed to Ambrose, whose style it resembles, but should be considered anonymous) On the Downfall of Jerusalem 2.12 (Greek)
Jerome: 5th century CE. On Famous Men 13 (Latin).
Jerome: Anonymous Greek translation of On Famous Men 13. (Greek)
Rufinus: 5th century CE. Latin translation of History of the Church 1.11.7b-8 (Latin).
Isidore of Pelusium: 5th century CE. Letters, book 4, epistle 225 (Greek).
Sozomen: 5th century CE. History of the Church 1.1.5 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Against the Jews 10 (Greek).
Anonymous: 5th or 6th century CE. Religious Dialogue at the Sassanid Court (Greek).
Oecumenius: 6th century CE. Commentary on the Apocalypse 88 (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Chronicon (Greek).
Monachus, George: 9th century CE. Anonymous compiler of Chronicon Breve (Greek).
Malalas, John: 9th century CE. Chronography 10 (Greek).
Haimo of Auxerre: 9th century CE. Epitome of Sacred History 1.13 (Latin).
Agapius bp. Of Heirapolis (Mahboub of Menbidj): 10th century CE. Kitab al-ʻunvan = universal history. (Original was Arabic) Roger Pearce funded ET of the T.F. citation in Vasiliev's 1910-1915 French tr of the Florence ms.
The Suda: 10th century CE. Lexicon iota 503 (Greek).
Constantine Porphyrogenitus: 10th century CE. 7th century CE?? On Virtues and Vices 1.84 (Greek).
Symeon Logothetes: 10th century CE. Chronicon 59 (Greek).
Leo Grammaticus: 11th century CE. Chronographia (Greek).
Cedrenus, George: 11th century CE. Compendium of History (Greek).
Zonoras, John: 11th or 12th century CE. Epitome of History (Greek).
Michael the Syrian: 12th century CE. Scholomo Pines' English translation of Chronicle (Syriac), page 26.
Glycas, Michael: 12th century CE. Annals (Greek)
Comestor, Peter: 12th century CE. Scholastic History (Latin)
Salisbury, John: 12th century CE. Polycraticus 2.9 (Latin)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Martino Diez' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in ms. Paris ar. 4729)
al-Makin [Girgis] ibn al-`Amid: 13th century CE. al-Magmu` al-Mubarak 'The blessed collection,' a universal history (Arabic, Schlomo Pines' E.T. of the T.F. from the longer form of the account, as found in Paris BNF ar. 294, f.162v-163r). He was convinced that this was a citation from Agapius.

As can be seen I have removed writings attributed to Origen from the list since this writer did not mention the "TF" in "Against Celsus 1.47 and 2.13.

The TF deals specifically with Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3.

What is most important is that Origen, although appearing to have knowledge of the 18th book of Antiquities only refers to John the Baptist and not Jesus of Nazareth.

Origen's "Against Celsus" appears to be evidence that the forgery called the TF was most likely carried sometime after Origen.
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DCHindley
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Re: TF Resource

Post by DCHindley »

Andrew, yes that slipped by me.

In the spreadsheet, it is in Latin, so I must have been thinking of Josephus' original War.

You already know this, of course, that PS-Hegesippus was working from an earlier Latin translation of Greek Josephus, and other sources, that he had turned into a sort of paraphrase of Josephus War in Latin.

The whole thing gets convoluted in my mind. I'll make corrections in a few days when my schedule clears.

Thanks!

DCH
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Ken Olson
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Re: TF Resource

Post by Ken Olson »

DCHindley wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:46 am You already know this, of course, that PS-Hegesippus was working from an earlier Latin translation of Greek Josephus, and other sources, that he had turned into a sort of paraphrase of Josephus War in Latin.
DCH
David,

Pseudo-Hegesippus was working from the Greek Jewish War, or at least he wasn't working from the known Latin translation of it. He has agreements with the Greek War against the Latin, e.g. he has Pereae in Excidio 5.43 in agreement with the Greek of BJ 6.202 against transamnanis in the Latin War. Unfortunately, there is no critical edition of the Latin Jewish War (though several libraries now have manuscripts online), but David Levenson is or was working on one (and is my source for this information).

Best,

Ken
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DCHindley
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Re: TF Resource

Post by DCHindley »

Ken Olson wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:39 pm
DCHindley wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:46 am You already know this, of course, that PS-Hegesippus was working from an earlier Latin translation of Greek Josephus, and other sources, that he had turned into a sort of paraphrase of Josephus War in Latin.
DCH
David,

Pseudo-Hegesippus was working from the Greek Jewish War, or at least he wasn't working from the known Latin translation of it. He has agreements with the Greek War against the Latin, e.g. he has Pereae in Excidio 5.43 in agreement with the Greek of BJ 6.202 against transamnanis in the Latin War. Unfortunately, there is no critical edition of the Latin Jewish War (though several libraries now have manuscripts online), but David Levenson is or was working on one (and is my source for this information).

Best,

Ken
Thanks for the correction, Ken!

I haven't looked at the TF issue for a couple years now, so I had a 15 minute break and I remembered things as best I could, which is badly as usual.

What I remember was a little controversy over whether Ps-Hegesippus (or Ambrose) had used an earlier Latin translation of Josephus' War, among other sources, to craft his paraphrase, or if he had access to Greek War.

Now that I think of it, one of the other sources was Josephus' Antiquities. I don't know off the top of my head whether there had ever been an ancient Latin translation of Antiquities. If not, then looking for Greek sources makes a lot of sense.

DCH
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DCHindley
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Re: TF Resource

Post by DCHindley »

Ken,

Ah, found what I was thinking of. It is a file dated to 2013 where I was attempting figure out what exactly this Latin history associated with the name Hegesippus was all about. I'm sure the whole reason was because it contains a citation of the Testimonium.

I summarized (I think) your article posted to Crosstalk, "Agapius’ testimonium" (Crosstalk2, Jul. 29, 2004), which was what probably first made me aware of Ps-Hegesippus, and Robert Eisler in Messiah Jesus (1933), and Albert Bell's Josephus and Pseudo-Hegesippus (Josephus, Judaism, and Christianity, 1987, Pages: 349-361).

You were correct, as always.

DCH
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Ken Olson
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Re: TF Resource

Post by Ken Olson »

David,

Alice Whealey has argued that Pseudo-Hegesippus used the Latin translation of the Jewish War, but on the basis that his other known sources are in Latin rather than on the basis of a direct comparison of the the text of the Excidio with the Greek and Latin texts of the War, so that may have been your source. David Levenson, who has made such a comparison, has concluded Pseudo-Hegesippus used the Greek.

Best,

Ken
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DCHindley
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Re: TF Resource

Post by DCHindley »

Ken Olson wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:33 pm David,

Alice Whealey has argued that Pseudo-Hegesippus used the Latin translation of the Jewish War, but on the basis that his other known sources are in Latin rather than on the basis of a direct comparison of the the text of the Excidio with the Greek and Latin texts of the War, so that may have been your source. David Levenson, who has made such a comparison, has concluded Pseudo-Hegesippus used the Greek.

Best,

Ken
Thanks Ken,

I did have a copy of Whealey's article until a HDD crash in 2019.

It just wasn't in that file I mentioned.

Keep well. DCH
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Ken Olson
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Re: TF Resource

Post by Ken Olson »

Alice Whealey, "Josephus on Jesus: Evidence from the First Millenium," Theologische Zeitschrift 51.4, 1995, 285-304, used to be freely available online as a PDF and was widely cited in discussions on the web. In it, she wrote:

Pseudo-Hegesippus' Testimonium is significant because it is the only version
which cannot have been influenced by Eusebius. Nothing in his work suggests
that Pseudo-Hegesippus knew Eusebius' works, which were not available in Latin
when he wrote. Other than Josephus, his sources are all Latin or, like the
Bible, available in Latin translation.21

N. 21 For example, it used the Latin rather than Greek version of I Maccabees. A. Bell, An
historiographical analysis of the De excidio Hierosolymitano of Pseudo-Hegesippus, PhD
Thesis, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, 1977. Pseudo-Hegesippus' dependence on
Latin sources raises the question whether he used the Latin Bellum rather than the Greek.

[Whealey, "Josephus," 297, 297 n.21; idem, Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (2003) 31, 49 n.61].

In the later publication, she changes "suggests" to "unequivocally proves."

Best,

Ken

P.S. In any event, David, thanks for posting the spreadsheet!
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JoeWallack
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You Say EuseBS, I Say EuseBias

Post by JoeWallack »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:01 pm Alice Whealey, "Josephus on Jesus: Evidence from the First Millenium," Theologische Zeitschrift 51.4, 1995, 285-304, used to be freely available online as a PDF and was widely cited in discussions on the web. In it, she wrote:

Pseudo-Hegesippus' Testimonium is significant because it is the only version
which cannot have been influenced by Eusebius. Nothing in his work suggests
that Pseudo-Hegesippus knew Eusebius' works, which were not available in Latin
when he wrote. Other than Josephus, his sources are all Latin or, like the
Bible, available in Latin translation.21

N. 21 For example, it used the Latin rather than Greek version of I Maccabees. A. Bell, An
historiographical analysis of the De excidio Hierosolymitano of Pseudo-Hegesippus, PhD
Thesis, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, 1977. Pseudo-Hegesippus' dependence on
Latin sources raises the question whether he used the Latin Bellum rather than the Greek.

[Whealey, "Josephus," 297, 297 n.21; idem, Josephus on Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Late Antiquity to Modern Times (2003) 31, 49 n.61].

In the later publication, she changes "suggests" to "unequivocally proves."

Best,

Ken

P.S. In any event, David, thanks for posting the spreadsheet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k

JW:
Besides the fact that "unequivocally" and "proves" do not belong next to each other, I guess she has finally convinced herself with her own argument. There's a word for that (and I confess that whenever I watch Les Miserables I always root for Javier). Proving a textual criticism issue in the ancient world is always unlikely. The best you can do is compare relative evidence for different candidates. Being unable to control overstated conclusions is bad for your credibility.


Josephus

APOLOGIZE, v.i. To lay the foundation for a future offence.

Skeptical Textual Criticism
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maryhelena
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Re: You Say EuseBS, I Say EuseBias

Post by maryhelena »

JoeWallack wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:55 pm
JW:
(and I confess that whenever I watch Les Miserables I always root for Javier).
A Les Mis fan...... :D

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