Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

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Jax
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Jax » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:50 am

DCHindley wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:34 pm
Well, I still think that there are two conversations going on in Romans chapter 10.

Below I provide them side by side and with all the quotations from the books of Jewish sacred writings as found in the Lxx (Law) & Old Greek (all the rest of it). Look for definite articles, and lack of them. Yes yes I know, sometimes definite-ness is a function of context.

I'd summarize it as follows, the author of Conversation 1 likes to use the definite article with Theos to identify the Judean God as the *real/head* God. He does not use a definite article with Kurios to identify YHWH, as one usually (but not always) find in the Judean sacred writings..

The author of Conversation 2 generally does not use the definite article with Theos, thinking of general "divinity" or of a divine nature. He always uses the definite article with Kurios, though, and the referent is always Jesus or Christ, unless he is citing sacred text.

Both these conversations are comfortable with the Greek translation of Hebrew sacred texts, although the author of conversation 1 prefers simple analogies based on just one proof text where the author of conversation 2 likes to compound more than one unrelated passages to make his or her points.

Πρὸς Ῥωμαῖοι
Conversation #1
Conversation #2
Passages from Lxx or Old Greek cited by the writer(s) of these two conversations.
10:1 Ἀδελφοί, ἡ μὲν εὐδοκία τῆς ἐμῆς καρδίας καὶ ἡ δέησις πρὸς τὸν θεὸν ὑπὲρ *αὐτῶν* εἰς σωτηρίαν. 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for *them* is that they may be saved.
10:2 μαρτυρῶ γὰρ αὐτοῖς ὅτι ζῆλον θεοῦ ἔχουσιν ἀλλ᾽ οὐ κατ᾽ ἐπίγνωσιν· 10:2 I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.
10:3 ἀγνοοῦντες γὰρ τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην καὶ τὴν ἰδίαν [δικαιοσύνην] ζητοῦντες στῆσαι, τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ οὐχ ὑπετάγησαν. 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
10:4 τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
10:5 Μωϋσῆς γὰρ γράφει *τὴν δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐκ [τοῦ] νόμου ὅτι* *ὁ ποιήσας αὐτὰ ἄνθρωπος ζήσεται ἐν αὐτοῖς*. 10:5 Moses writes that *the righteousness which is based on the law* *the man who practices it will live by it.*
10:6 ἡ δὲ ἐκ πίστεως δικαιοσύνη οὕτως λέγει· μὴ εἴπῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου· τίς ἀναβήσεται εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν; τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν Χριστὸν καταγαγεῖν· 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down)
10:7 ἤ· τίς καταβήσεται εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον; τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν Χριστὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναγαγεῖν. 10:7 or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
10:8 ἀλλὰ τί λέγει; ἐγγύς σου τὸ ῥῆμά ἐστιν ἐν τῷ στόματί σου καὶ ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου, τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν τὸ ῥῆμα τῆς πίστεως ὃ κηρύσσομεν. 10:8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
10:9 ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς *ἐν τῷ στόματί σου κύριον Ἰησοῦν* καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ· 10:9 because, if you confess *with your lips that Jesus is Lord* and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10:10 καρδίᾳ γὰρ πιστεύεται εἰς δικαιοσύνην, στόματι δὲ ὁμολογεῖται εἰς σωτηρίαν. 10:10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
10:11 λέγει γὰρ ἡ γραφή· πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐπ᾽ αὐτῷ οὐ καταισχυνθήσεται. 10:11 The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."
10:12a οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολὴ Ἰουδαίου τε καὶ Ἕλληνος, 10:12a For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek;
10:12b γὰρ αὐτὸς κύριος πάντων, πλουτῶν εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἐπικαλουμένους αὐτόν· 10:12b the same [one] Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
10:13 πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται. (Joel 2:32) 10:13 For, "every one who calls upon the name of the LORD will be saved." (Joel 2:32) (Old Greek Joe 3:5) καὶ ἔσται πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται ὅτι ἐν τῷ ὄρει Σιων καὶ ἐν Ιερουσαλημ ἔσται ἀνασῳζόμενος καθότι εἶπεν κύριος καὶ εὐαγγελιζόμενοι οὓς κύριος προσκέκληται. RSV Joe 2:32) And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved: for in mount Sion and in Jerusalem shall the saved one be as the Lord has said, and they that have glad tidings preached to them, whom the Lord has called.
10:14a Πῶς οὖν ἐπικαλέσωνται εἰς ὃν οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν; 10:14a But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed?
10:14b πῶς δὲ πιστεύσωσιν οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; 10:14b And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
10:14c πῶς δὲ ἀκούσωσιν χωρὶς κηρύσσοντος; 10:14c And how are they to hear without a preacher?
10:15a πῶς δὲ κηρύξωσιν ἐὰν μὴ ἀποσταλῶσιν; 10:15a And how can men preach unless they are sent?
10:15b καθὼς γέγραπται· ὡς ὡραῖοι *οἱ πόδες τῶν εὐαγγελιζομένων* [τὰ] ἀγαθά. (Nah 1:15) 10:15b As it is written, "How beautiful are *the feet of those who preach good news*!" (Nah 1:15) (Old Greek (Nah 2:1) ἰδοὺ ἐπὶ τὰ ὄρη οἱ πόδες εὐαγγελιζομένου καὶ ἀπαγγέλλοντος εἰρήνην. (RSV Nah 1:15) Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that brings glad tidings, and publishes peace!
10:16 Ἀλλ᾽ οὐ πάντες ὑπήκουσαν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ. Ἠσαΐας γὰρ λέγει· κύριε, τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; (Isa 53:1) 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος *Χριστοῦ*. 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of *Christ*.
10:18 ἀλλὰ λέγω, μὴ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; μενοῦνγε· εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἐξῆλθεν ὁ φθόγγος αὐτῶν καὶ εἰς τὰ πέρατα τῆς οἰκουμένης τὰ ῥήματα αὐτῶν. (Psa 18:5) 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Psa 19:4) (OG Psa 18:5) εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἐξῆλθεν ὁ φθόγγος αὐτῶν καὶ εἰς τὰ πέρατα τῆς οἰκουμένης τὰ ῥήματα αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ ἡλίῳ ἔθετο τὸ σκήνωμα αὐτοῦ (RSV Psa 19:4) Their voice is gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.
10:19 ἀλλὰ λέγω, μὴ Ἰσραὴλ οὐκ ἔγνω; πρῶτος Μωϋσῆς λέγει· ἐγὼ παραζηλώσω ὑμᾶς ἐπ᾽ οὐκ ἔθνει, ἐπ᾽ ἔθνει ἀσυνέτῳ παροργιῶ ὑμᾶς. (Deu 32:21) 10:19 Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry." (Deu 32:21) (Lxx Deu 32:21) αὐτοὶ παρεζήλωσάν με ἐπ᾽ οὐ θεῷ παρώργισάν με ἐν τοῖς εἰδώλοις αὐτῶν κἀγὼ παραζηλώσω αὐτοὺς ἐπ᾽ οὐκ ἔθνει ἐπ᾽ ἔθνει ἀσυνέτῳ παροργιῶ αὐτούς. (RSV Deu 32:21) They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.
10:20 Ἠσαΐας δὲ ἀποτολμᾷ καὶ λέγει· εὑρέθην [ἐν] τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ζητοῦσιν, ἐμφανὴς ἐγενόμην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ἐπερωτῶσιν. (Isa 65:1) 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." (Isa 65:1) (OG Isa 65:1) ἐμφανὴς ἐγενόμην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ζητοῦσιν εὑρέθην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ἐπερωτῶσιν εἶπα ἰδού εἰμι τῷ ἔθνει οἳ οὐκ ἐκάλεσάν μου τὸ ὄνομα. (RSV Isa 65:1) I became manifest to them that asked not for me; I was found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold, I am here, to a nation, who called not on my name.
10:21 πρὸς δὲ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ λέγει· ὅλην τὴν ἡμέραν ἐξεπέτασα τὰς χεῖράς μου πρὸς λαὸν ἀπειθοῦντα καὶ ἀντιλέγοντα. (Isa 65:2) 10:21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people." (Isa 65:2) (OG Isa 65:2) ἐξεπέτασα τὰς χεῖράς μου ὅλην τὴν ἡμέραν πρὸς λαὸν ἀπειθοῦντα καὶ ἀντιλέγοντα οἳ οὐκ ἐπορεύθησαν ὁδῷ ἀληθινῇ ἀλλ᾽ ὀπίσω τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν. RSV Isa 65:2) I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins.

In summary ... it's complicated.

DCH
Right on Dave, This is very interesting.

cora
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by cora » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:59 pm

DCH,
Very well done! That is exactly what I mean all the time. The nr.2 is Paul. The nr.1 is the interpolator. This happens all through the letters of Paul. It will take a 100 years or more to sort it out. If it will be done, we will have the original letters of Paul back!

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DCHindley
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by DCHindley » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:22 pm

cora wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:59 pm
DCH,
Very well done! That is exactly what I mean all the time. The nr.2 is Paul. The nr.1 is the interpolator. This happens all through the letters of Paul. It will take a 100 years or more to sort it out. If it will be done, we will have the original letters of Paul back!
You are in good company.

One of the pioneering teams to look critically at the Paulines was Allard Pierson and S. A. Naber, et. al., who published a Latin monograph entitled Verisimilia[: laceram conditionem Novi Testamenti] exemplis illustrarunt et ab origine repetierunt (1886).

This is how Albert Schweitzer describes their collaboration:
The two friends combined their efforts in order to show New Testament exegetes how much they had left unexplained in the Epistles to the Thessalonians, Galatians, Corinthians, and Romans, and how many problems, incoherencies, and contradictions appear when one reads these writings with an open mind. (123n3)

[124] But instead of making a thorough examination of the problems and laboriously arguing the case with the other students of Paulinism, the authors at once proceed to suggest what appears to them a possible solution. They claim to have discovered that the inconsistencies are due in the main to the presence of two strata of thought which have been worked together. The one is of a sharply anti-Jewish character; the other consists of milder and more conciliatory ideas.

If it be assumed, so runs their argument, that Christianity was in its real origin a Jewish sect which had liberal ideas in regard to the law and directed its expectation towards the Messiah, the antinomian sections of the Epistles represent documents of that period.

The present form of the letters is due to the fact that a later "Churchman" — the authors call him Paulus episcopus, and think that he may have served as model for the Paul of Acts — worked into them the second, milder set of ideas.

...
123n3) The work gives a running analysis of the letters in the course of which very interesting questions are thrown out. Why is nothing said about the earthly life of Jesus? Why is no trace of the influence of this Paul's thought to be found in history? Do the various characteristics and actions of his which are recorded show us a character which is at all intelligible? The authors assume that the Jewish movement which led up to "Christianity" at first had only to do with the Messianic belief in general. Only later, through the blending of Greek myths with Isaiah 53., did the belief arise that the expected Messiah had already come and had passed through death and resurrection. The analysis of the Pauline Epistles is followed by essays upon the Paul of Acts and some chapters on the Fourth Gospel. The close is formed by an essay on the gradual origin of the conception of Christ in the New Testament.
The theory that Christianity developed out of an already existing Jewish movement is maintained also by M. Friedländer in his popular and unimportant work, Das Judentum in der vorchristlichen griechischen Welt ["Judaism in the pre-Christian Greek world" -dch], a contribution towards explaining the origin of Christianity (1897, 74 pp.). The opposition between a conservative and a freer tendency as regards the law, which appear in the primitive Church, are here held to have appeared previously in the Judaism from which Christianity originated.
For me, I think Conversation 1 is the historical Paul, who didn't know a thing about Jesus or Christ or any Lords besides the LORD (the word Adonai as a stand in for the name of the Judean God). In my opinion, he was a Diaspora Jew of the retainer classes (all we know is he sailed around a lot).

Now Conversation 2, which appears to me to be overlaid over conversation1 as a kind of commentary that in time got incorporated into conversation 1, is essentially Christ theology. But it is no longer a failed messianic movement trying to pick up the pieces after his arrest and execution, maybe shifting to view that Jesus is still the true messiah, who will now come with the angels of God on the final day of Judgement that will inaugurate God's kingdom. It is a fully developed mystery-type religion when the conversation.

To me that level of theology requires a bit of heat and pressure, catalysts to create the "Christian" doctrines from the remnants of the messianic movement. I look for that in the 1st Judean war. The social upheavals that rocked gentile-Judean relationships in Judean dominated provinces and southern Syria were as bad as those that prevailed in Bosnia-Herzegovina or Rwanda in the 1990s. Seemingly at peace with one another, tolerant and friendly, respectful. There were bad apples then just as now, showing there was at least some tension between some gentiles and some Judeans.

But the folks who developed the Christ mystery doctrines seemingly were gentiles who once had a very close bond with Judaism, maybe even to the point of receiving circumcision. The pressures of the war led them to feel betrayed by Judeans who may have begun to shun them and even turn on them. I think someone mentioned M. Friedlander upthread. Schweitzer did not like him any more than he approved of Pierson or Naber, but Birger Pearson has re-examined his work more recently to try to trace the origins of Judean Gnosticism. Very interesting stuff.

DCH

Bernard Muller
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:46 pm

to DCHindley,
But it is no longer a failed messianic movement trying to pick up the pieces after his arrest and execution, maybe shifting to view that Jesus is still the true messiah, who will now come with the angels of God on the final day of Judgement that will inaugurate God's kingdom.
Right on.
To me that level of theology requires a bit of heat and pressure, catalysts to create the "Christian" doctrines from the remnants of the messianic movement.
For me, that heat and pressure was created by Pilate's repression as described by Josephus in Wars II, IX, 4 and retold in Ant.XVIII, III, 2. See http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html
The remnants of the (Jesus based) messianic movement (which I called the first proto-Christians) could not admit they have been wrong about Jesus as King, found solace in the OT scriptures, Philo of Alexandria writings, and tales of reappearances.

Cordially, Bernard

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