Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

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MrMacSon
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:13 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:06 pm
... He is writing only of what the very earliest Christians (such as Paul) would have found in their manuscripts. The LXX/OG preponderance of instance of using Lord for Yahweh comes a bit later. Early on it is harder to tell exactly what was there. Less evidence, and the evidence is more mixed.
Cheers Ben. So it seems the changes in the LXX/OG may have happened as Pauline theology was being developed.

I wonder what role Philo's pontifications (and perhaps other Jewish or semi-Jewish 'sages' around his time: do we know of any?) might have had on the changes to LXX/OG?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:29 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:13 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:06 pm
... He is writing only of what the very earliest Christians (such as Paul) would have found in their manuscripts. The LXX/OG preponderance of instance of using Lord for Yahweh comes a bit later. Early on it is harder to tell exactly what was there. Less evidence, and the evidence is more mixed.
Cheers Ben. So it seems the changes in the LXX/OG may have happened as Pauline theology was being developed.
Well, maybe, but there is some evidence that people started speaking substitutes for the divine name before they started writing them. And there is also evidence both for Ἰάω and for κύριος as substitutions before early Christianity. What there is not unequivocal evidence for is a uniform custom at that early date, nor for which practice came first.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:42 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:29 pm
Well, maybe, but there is some evidence that people started speaking substitutes for the divine name before they started writing them. And there is...evidence both for Ἰάω and for κύριος as substitutions before early Christianity. What there is not unequivocal evidence for [is] a uniform custom at that early date, nor for which practice came first.
  • Cheers. That's helpful.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by rgprice » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:09 pm

It's as if Paul is literally substituting the name "Jesus" for YHWH. Given all of the uncertainty around the divine names in the scriptures, is that possible? Could it really be that somehow Paul was using reading "Jesus" in places where we would expect to find YHWH? But if so, Paul still had to get to the idea of being crucified somehow, which seems to come from Isaiah 53, but it doesn't quite make sense.

If you simply substitute "Jesus" in place of "the Lord" in Isaiah 53, it doesn't read correctly, in particularly v10.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:36 pm

rgprice wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:09 pm
It's as if Paul is literally substituting the name "Jesus" for YHWH.
Yes, exactly.
Given all of the uncertainty around the divine names in the scriptures, is that possible?
It seems like a huge reach to me.
But if so, Paul still had to get to the idea of being crucified somehow, which seems to come from Isaiah 53, but it doesn't quite make sense.
This is where Messiah ben Joseph comes in. :D YMOV. (Your mileage obviously varies.)
If you simply substitute "Jesus" in place of "the Lord" in Isaiah 53, it doesn't read correctly, in particularly v10.
Most the Hebrew scriptures, including many which Paul himself quotes, do not work correctly that way.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by lsayre » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:20 pm

lsayre wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:20 pm
snip...
Is there in this an implication (within the snipped part) that the Jews are the children of Ishmael? Is there anywhere in Paul's letters wherein he twists and bends things so as to seemingly arrive at this very same implication?
Galatians 4:21-31

Mt. Sinai is both the mountain of Hagar and the mountain upon which Yahweh gave Moses the 10 Commandments/Utterances.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by perseusomega9 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:59 pm

"What Happened to the Lord the Jews used to Know"

This thread titled made me think of this (for Star Wars fans and those young enough to get the son parody)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJlbPXZEpRE

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:21 pm

perseusomega9 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:59 pm
"What Happened to the Lord the Jews used to Know"

This thread titled made me think of this (for Star Wars fans and those young enough to get the son parody)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJlbPXZEpRE
Wooow, that takes me back....

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by cora » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:40 pm

How interesting. I am a fan of Paul and therefore:
1. I see that no one still has heard of the enormous amount of interpolations (forgeries) in the letters of Paul to make them ready for the catholic church? Information enough about it.
2. I see that still nobody has an idea when Paul lived? (but the acts say...……..).
3. Paul was NOT talking about Jesus, and NOT about Christ. It is a forgery from 185.
4. Anybody in his right mind would NOT go to the west of Turkey and Greece to preach a jewish messiah, since they do not know what that is, and probably not want to know either.
5. Jesaja 53 has nothing to do with it.
6. Paul is not interested more than necessary in the LXX.
7. Paul is preaching the Lord XXXX, which is a god. (very well observed).
8. NOT EVERY GOD MENTIONED ANYWHERE IS JAHWEH, OR HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM. I can assure you that Paul's god the father and XXXX the son who is there from the beginning have nothing to do with Jahweh. Otherwise he could have preached in Israel. Why is everybody Jahweh-obsessed? The god of the jews, so?
9. The god of the new religion is XXXX. His father cannot move.
10. Paul and Marcion are more or less the same. Maybe that has to do with the letters and the gospel he inherited, you never know.
11. Marcion did NOT mess with the papers, that story comes from Irenaeus as we all know, who is himself the king of messing with papers.
12. Mark, Mathew and Luke do not exist, at least not as gospel writers, and were long time dead when the gospels were written. Ask the person who came with the names.
13. John did exist, and he wrote the gospel of John, and there you can see at least that he is against Jahweh. Jewish gnostics hate Jahweh, that is why they emigrated. John, like Marcion, came from Paul. Talent enough. Howcome it did not work out?

Hope to have supported you all.

rgprice
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by rgprice » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:57 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:09 pm
rgprice wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:33 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Philo never seems to address the underlying Hebrew names of "God" in the scriptures. In On the Change of Names, and some other places, he talks about "God" vs "the Lord" but doesn't seem to address these as names, but rather as titles using the Greek terms. It seems like Philo was reading Κύριος and Theos, or is that not the case?
  • I'm not knowledgeable on Philo on this, sorry.

    But, are YHWH, God/Theo, and Κύριος ever not titles?

    Some of Paul's epistles have lots of Lord Jesus Christ

    I think the likes of Philo and Paul—especially Paul—were playing with words, and Paul comes across as baiting and switching in his use of κύριος (Kyrios)/ Lord for Jesus and use of the Lord alone. In a time of tremendous theological fluidity - probably the time and place—the region—of the most theological fluidity ever (perhaps matched by the USA 2016-2020: all hail Q)

    (Paul baits and switches about the Law from mid-Galatians 2(ff) )
There are times in the scriptures when "lord" simply means lord.

This is a good example that leads into the use of "Lord" as a substitute for YHWH:

1 Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Your name in all the earth,
You who have displayed Your splendor above the heavens!

This was originally, "YHWH, our lord...". Which is interesting, because it shows the application of the title lord to YHWH by the original author.

Another such example:
Psalm 16:2 I said to the Lord, “You are my Lord;
I have nothing good besides You.”

"I said to YHWH, 'You are my lord...'"

Here is just lord meaning lord:
Psalm 45: 11 Then the King will crave your beauty. Because He is your lord, bow down to Him.

I find it interesting that Paul and early Christians made so much use of the Psalms and Isaiah, with very little use of the Torah. This seems to support Barker's thesis, that Christianity and other similar second-God movements developed out of older traditions. Paul uses scriptures where the distinction between "God" and "the Lord" is more apparent.

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