Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:59 am

rgprice wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:06 am
But I'll be honest, doing comparing between the orthodox and Marcionite versions of the letters, (or the notes regarding Marcion's) there are still a lot of unknown and there definitely appear to be places where the orthodox version sounds more plausible.
I feel the same way about the Apostolicon. But not about the Evangelion. I used to think that there were spots at which our canonical Luke is more original than the Marcionite version, which (because of other spots at which Marcion looks more original) which would imply that both copied from a proto-gospel text, but virtually all of my examples of Luke being more original have been shot down (mostly on this very forum). What I am left with is unidirectional: Marcionite version first, and then canonical Luke. I cannot strictly rule out both copying from a previous text, but I no longer have any reason to think that this is what happened.
So like Romans 1:3-4 is an obvious interpolation. So is 1 Cor 15:5-11. But, interestingly, I no longer agree with RMP that 1 Cor 15:3-4 was part of the interpolation, because it is attested in Marcion.
I agree that at least parts of verses 3-4 are probably original.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by cora » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:51 pm

Isayre is right, as was Roger Parvus. the Zig is Paul himself, the Zag is Irenaeus preparing the NT for the church of rome (very easy to find).
Marcion had the original letters of Paul (very basic gnostic). Irenaeus made forgeries, interpolations and was simply writing in the text in a style similar to Paul's. To make him ready for the catholic church (which he was not). It was done in the "against Marcion" war which started around 160 (also very easy to find). Since then Paul's letters are difficult to follow, and unexplicable (which was the meaning).

I am sort of specialised in Paul and Irenaeus, so I can mostly see what Paul would have said and what he would not have said. Also I can take their writings apart. I must warn that this is not about a line or a few lines. I was re-reading the letter to the romans in a cleaned up version, but I found writings of Irenaeus from a page long. Or two alinea's long. It is massive. He copies the style including typical Paul sayings, but the style is slightly different and the content differs. When it is about love, that is Paul. When it is about righteousness, that is Irenaeus. And there are more criteria by which the two can be separated. Proposing Jahweh as the god for everybody, that is obviously NOT Paul.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:11 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:21 pm
perseusomega9 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:59 pm
"What Happened to the Lord the Jews used to Know"

This thread titled made me think of this (for Star Wars fans and those young enough to get the son parody)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJlbPXZEpRE
Wooow, that takes me back....
Star Wars is an interesting analogy to how Christianity may have developed. Think about in terms of story progression, publish,then add special edition, do more story improvisation (BRDVD), non-canonical writings are allowed for now, rewrite it again correcting minor details (anniversary edition), create a birth narrative which recons prior stories (prequel trilogy), new bishop takes over (Disney) purge non-canonical writings, pesher re-imaginings (sequel trilogy), acts of your favorite characters; all while people take this mythology very seriously while knowing it's make-believe.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:21 pm

Time to publish, perseusomega9.

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:27 pm

Even the creator himself amended his own work and then said the originals were lost!!!

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:41 pm

perseusomega9 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:27 pm
Even the creator himself amended his own work and then said the originals were lost!!!

ETA: and we're only 40 years into this new cult

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:42 pm

gotta really remember the diff between the quote and edit pics

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:42 pm

I'm drunk btw

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by DCHindley » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:34 pm

Well, I still think that there are two conversations going on in Romans chapter 10.

Below I provide them side by side and with all the quotations from the books of Jewish sacred writings as found in the Lxx (Law) & Old Greek (all the rest of it). Look for definite articles, and lack of them. Yes yes I know, sometimes definite-ness is a function of context.

I'd summarize it as follows, the author of Conversation 1 likes to use the definite article with Theos to identify the Judean God as the *real/head* God. He does not use a definite article with Kurios to identify YHWH, as one usually (but not always) find in the Judean sacred writings..

The author of Conversation 2 generally does not use the definite article with Theos, thinking of general "divinity" or of a divine nature. He always uses the definite article with Kurios, though, and the referent is always Jesus or Christ, unless he is citing sacred text.

Both these conversations are comfortable with the Greek translation of Hebrew sacred texts, although the author of conversation 1 prefers simple analogies based on just one proof text where the author of conversation 2 likes to compound more than one unrelated passages to make his or her points.

Πρὸς Ῥωμαῖοι
Conversation #1
Conversation #2
Passages from Lxx or Old Greek cited by the writer(s) of these two conversations.
10:1 Ἀδελφοί, ἡ μὲν εὐδοκία τῆς ἐμῆς καρδίας καὶ ἡ δέησις πρὸς τὸν θεὸν ὑπὲρ *αὐτῶν* εἰς σωτηρίαν. 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for *them* is that they may be saved.
10:2 μαρτυρῶ γὰρ αὐτοῖς ὅτι ζῆλον θεοῦ ἔχουσιν ἀλλ᾽ οὐ κατ᾽ ἐπίγνωσιν· 10:2 I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.
10:3 ἀγνοοῦντες γὰρ τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην καὶ τὴν ἰδίαν [δικαιοσύνην] ζητοῦντες στῆσαι, τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ οὐχ ὑπετάγησαν. 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
10:4 τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
10:5 Μωϋσῆς γὰρ γράφει *τὴν δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐκ [τοῦ] νόμου ὅτι* *ὁ ποιήσας αὐτὰ ἄνθρωπος ζήσεται ἐν αὐτοῖς*. 10:5 Moses writes that *the righteousness which is based on the law* *the man who practices it will live by it.*
10:6 ἡ δὲ ἐκ πίστεως δικαιοσύνη οὕτως λέγει· μὴ εἴπῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου· τίς ἀναβήσεται εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν; τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν Χριστὸν καταγαγεῖν· 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down)
10:7 ἤ· τίς καταβήσεται εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον; τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν Χριστὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναγαγεῖν. 10:7 or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
10:8 ἀλλὰ τί λέγει; ἐγγύς σου τὸ ῥῆμά ἐστιν ἐν τῷ στόματί σου καὶ ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου, τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν τὸ ῥῆμα τῆς πίστεως ὃ κηρύσσομεν. 10:8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
10:9 ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς *ἐν τῷ στόματί σου κύριον Ἰησοῦν* καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ· 10:9 because, if you confess *with your lips that Jesus is Lord* and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10:10 καρδίᾳ γὰρ πιστεύεται εἰς δικαιοσύνην, στόματι δὲ ὁμολογεῖται εἰς σωτηρίαν. 10:10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
10:11 λέγει γὰρ ἡ γραφή· πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐπ᾽ αὐτῷ οὐ καταισχυνθήσεται. 10:11 The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."
10:12a οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολὴ Ἰουδαίου τε καὶ Ἕλληνος, 10:12a For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek;
10:12b γὰρ αὐτὸς κύριος πάντων, πλουτῶν εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἐπικαλουμένους αὐτόν· 10:12b the same [one] Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
10:13 πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται. (Joel 2:32) 10:13 For, "every one who calls upon the name of the LORD will be saved." (Joel 2:32) (Old Greek Joe 3:5) καὶ ἔσται πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται ὅτι ἐν τῷ ὄρει Σιων καὶ ἐν Ιερουσαλημ ἔσται ἀνασῳζόμενος καθότι εἶπεν κύριος καὶ εὐαγγελιζόμενοι οὓς κύριος προσκέκληται. RSV Joe 2:32) And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved: for in mount Sion and in Jerusalem shall the saved one be as the Lord has said, and they that have glad tidings preached to them, whom the Lord has called.
10:14a Πῶς οὖν ἐπικαλέσωνται εἰς ὃν οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν; 10:14a But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed?
10:14b πῶς δὲ πιστεύσωσιν οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; 10:14b And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
10:14c πῶς δὲ ἀκούσωσιν χωρὶς κηρύσσοντος; 10:14c And how are they to hear without a preacher?
10:15a πῶς δὲ κηρύξωσιν ἐὰν μὴ ἀποσταλῶσιν; 10:15a And how can men preach unless they are sent?
10:15b καθὼς γέγραπται· ὡς ὡραῖοι *οἱ πόδες τῶν εὐαγγελιζομένων* [τὰ] ἀγαθά. (Nah 1:15) 10:15b As it is written, "How beautiful are *the feet of those who preach good news*!" (Nah 1:15) (Old Greek (Nah 2:1) ἰδοὺ ἐπὶ τὰ ὄρη οἱ πόδες εὐαγγελιζομένου καὶ ἀπαγγέλλοντος εἰρήνην. (RSV Nah 1:15) Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that brings glad tidings, and publishes peace!
10:16 Ἀλλ᾽ οὐ πάντες ὑπήκουσαν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ. Ἠσαΐας γὰρ λέγει· κύριε, τίς ἐπίστευσεν τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; (Isa 53:1) 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος *Χριστοῦ*. 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of *Christ*.
10:18 ἀλλὰ λέγω, μὴ οὐκ ἤκουσαν; μενοῦνγε· εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἐξῆλθεν ὁ φθόγγος αὐτῶν καὶ εἰς τὰ πέρατα τῆς οἰκουμένης τὰ ῥήματα αὐτῶν. (Psa 18:5) 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Psa 19:4) (OG Psa 18:5) εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἐξῆλθεν ὁ φθόγγος αὐτῶν καὶ εἰς τὰ πέρατα τῆς οἰκουμένης τὰ ῥήματα αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ ἡλίῳ ἔθετο τὸ σκήνωμα αὐτοῦ (RSV Psa 19:4) Their voice is gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.
10:19 ἀλλὰ λέγω, μὴ Ἰσραὴλ οὐκ ἔγνω; πρῶτος Μωϋσῆς λέγει· ἐγὼ παραζηλώσω ὑμᾶς ἐπ᾽ οὐκ ἔθνει, ἐπ᾽ ἔθνει ἀσυνέτῳ παροργιῶ ὑμᾶς. (Deu 32:21) 10:19 Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry." (Deu 32:21) (Lxx Deu 32:21) αὐτοὶ παρεζήλωσάν με ἐπ᾽ οὐ θεῷ παρώργισάν με ἐν τοῖς εἰδώλοις αὐτῶν κἀγὼ παραζηλώσω αὐτοὺς ἐπ᾽ οὐκ ἔθνει ἐπ᾽ ἔθνει ἀσυνέτῳ παροργιῶ αὐτούς. (RSV Deu 32:21) They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.
10:20 Ἠσαΐας δὲ ἀποτολμᾷ καὶ λέγει· εὑρέθην [ἐν] τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ζητοῦσιν, ἐμφανὴς ἐγενόμην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ἐπερωτῶσιν. (Isa 65:1) 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." (Isa 65:1) (OG Isa 65:1) ἐμφανὴς ἐγενόμην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ζητοῦσιν εὑρέθην τοῖς ἐμὲ μὴ ἐπερωτῶσιν εἶπα ἰδού εἰμι τῷ ἔθνει οἳ οὐκ ἐκάλεσάν μου τὸ ὄνομα. (RSV Isa 65:1) I became manifest to them that asked not for me; I was found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold, I am here, to a nation, who called not on my name.
10:21 πρὸς δὲ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ λέγει· ὅλην τὴν ἡμέραν ἐξεπέτασα τὰς χεῖράς μου πρὸς λαὸν ἀπειθοῦντα καὶ ἀντιλέγοντα. (Isa 65:2) 10:21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people." (Isa 65:2) (OG Isa 65:2) ἐξεπέτασα τὰς χεῖράς μου ὅλην τὴν ἡμέραν πρὸς λαὸν ἀπειθοῦντα καὶ ἀντιλέγοντα οἳ οὐκ ἐπορεύθησαν ὁδῷ ἀληθινῇ ἀλλ᾽ ὀπίσω τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν. RSV Isa 65:2) I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins.

In summary ... it's complicated.

DCH

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Re: Romans 10: Jews don't know the Lord...

Post by Jax » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:46 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:42 pm
I'm drunk btw
Wait! I thought that it was required that one be well spiffed before hitting the submit button. :lol:

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