Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rgprice
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by rgprice » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:50 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:02 am
Jax wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:30 am
"Lord" is another one IMO. The way Paul uses the term seems like "Master" would be a better translation.
I am not sure about this one. It needs to function as a title of respect and social stratification. Master works great in household contexts and some others, but in a lot of cases I think Lord is far better.

With respect to the proper translation of a term, there is rarely a single word in one language which maps directly onto a single word in another language. I also think that personal experience comes into play more often than we might like to think. Such is the case with me and the word "church." I myself have zero issue using that term as a translation for the Greek term, and have no plans to change my usage (especially since I habitually give the Greek itself in discussions, so screw the English anyway), because I grew up in a religious context in which "church" always meant the people, not the building. We had to add the word "building" to the term to specify it: "church building." This was part of the teaching and tradition of the low church circles I grew up in, so to my ear "church" already means an assembly, no fiddling required. But I can easily see where people from other backgrounds might think mainly of the physical edifice.
I think church is misleading, and could be significantly so.

Saying "church of God" implies a Christian identity that almost certainly didn't exist. "Church of God" could be synonymous with "cult of Theos Hypsistos". "Church" implies a recent organization that came into existence with the preaching of Jesus Christ.

But when we read, 2 Corinthians 8:18 "We have sent along with him the brother whose fame in the things of the gospel has spread through all the churches;" it should be clear that these "churches" were preexisting, and thus existed as bodies prior to adopting any teachings about Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:2 "To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:"

Saints (hagioi) is another anachronism, presumably meaning dedicants. But the "church of God" in Corinth surely existed long before Paul came to town. It appears possible that the "church of God" in Corinth may have contained people at this time who were not worshipers of Jesus Christ along with others who were. I would presume that the "church of God" in Corinth was an assembly principally of Gentile worshipers of the Highest God.

The key issue is that hagioi and ekklēsia were terms that had broad usage and shared meaning among Jews and Greeks. They weren't Christian specific terms, and they weren't identifying Christian specific institutions. But "church" and "saint" are Christianized terms, that aren't applied to other religions. The terms Paul used were broad terms, that applied equally to Jews, God-fearers and even pagans.

I'll put it this way. Let's say I started a new religion that claimed Noah had been raised from the dead. I went around to synagogues around the country and I told Jews about this. And I wrote letters in which I talked about "synagogues of God." But hundreds of years from now, some groups had adopted by religion and they no longer called themselves Jews, they called themselves Noahites. And their places of worship were called Arks.

And the publications of my letters, where I wrote "synagogues of God" were changed to say "arks of God." This would have meaning would it not? It would imply a level of adoption and distinction of Noahism that didn't actually exist at the time.

rgprice
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by rgprice » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:45 am

I guess here is the important question: how is ekklēsia translated in the Old Testament? Where is it used in the LXX? Where does the term "ekklēsian tou Theou" exist outside of NT writings? Are Paul's letters the first place the phrase "ekklēsian tou Theou" was ever used? If not, what are other examples of its usage?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:12 pm

rgprice wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:45 am
I guess here is the important question: how is ekklēsia translated in the Old Testament? Where is it used in the LXX? Where does the term "ekklēsian tou Theou" exist outside of NT writings? Are Paul's letters the first place the phrase "ekklēsian tou Theou" was ever used? If not, what are other examples of its usage?
The Greek ἐκκλησία is found in the LXX/OG a number of times, usually translated as "assembly" or "congregation" or the like. It essentially meant the collective worshiping community of Israel.

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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:17 pm

I know that ἐκκλησία κυρίου appears at least twice, and ἐκκλησία θεοῦ appears at Nehemiah 13.1.

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Jax
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Jax » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:18 pm

rgprice wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:50 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:02 am
Jax wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:30 am
"Lord" is another one IMO. The way Paul uses the term seems like "Master" would be a better translation.
I am not sure about this one. It needs to function as a title of respect and social stratification. Master works great in household contexts and some others, but in a lot of cases I think Lord is far better.

With respect to the proper translation of a term, there is rarely a single word in one language which maps directly onto a single word in another language. I also think that personal experience comes into play more often than we might like to think. Such is the case with me and the word "church." I myself have zero issue using that term as a translation for the Greek term, and have no plans to change my usage (especially since I habitually give the Greek itself in discussions, so screw the English anyway), because I grew up in a religious context in which "church" always meant the people, not the building. We had to add the word "building" to the term to specify it: "church building." This was part of the teaching and tradition of the low church circles I grew up in, so to my ear "church" already means an assembly, no fiddling required. But I can easily see where people from other backgrounds might think mainly of the physical edifice.
I think church is misleading, and could be significantly so.

Saying "church of God" implies a Christian identity that almost certainly didn't exist. "Church of God" could be synonymous with "cult of Theos Hypsistos". "Church" implies a recent organization that came into existence with the preaching of Jesus Christ.

But when we read, 2 Corinthians 8:18 "We have sent along with him the brother whose fame in the things of the gospel has spread through all the churches;" it should be clear that these "churches" were preexisting, and thus existed as bodies prior to adopting any teachings about Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:2 "To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:"

Saints (hagioi) is another anachronism, presumably meaning dedicants. But the "church of God" in Corinth surely existed long before Paul came to town. It appears possible that the "church of God" in Corinth may have contained people at this time who were not worshipers of Jesus Christ along with others who were. I would presume that the "church of God" in Corinth was an assembly principally of Gentile worshipers of the Highest God.

The key issue is that hagioi and ekklēsia were terms that had broad usage and shared meaning among Jews and Greeks. They weren't Christian specific terms, and they weren't identifying Christian specific institutions. But "church" and "saint" are Christianized terms, that aren't applied to other religions. The terms Paul used were broad terms, that applied equally to Jews, God-fearers and even pagans.

I'll put it this way. Let's say I started a new religion that claimed Noah had been raised from the dead. I went around to synagogues around the country and I told Jews about this. And I wrote letters in which I talked about "synagogues of God." But hundreds of years from now, some groups had adopted by religion and they no longer called themselves Jews, they called themselves Noahites. And their places of worship were called Arks.

And the publications of my letters, where I wrote "synagogues of God" were changed to say "arks of God." This would have meaning would it not? It would imply a level of adoption and distinction of Noahism that didn't actually exist at the time.
This is my basic premise, yes.

rgprice
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by rgprice » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:19 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:17 pm
I know that ἐκκλησία κυρίου appears at least twice, and ἐκκλησία θεοῦ appears at Nehemiah 13.1.
The NASB has "assembly of the Lord" quite a few times: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... rsion=NASB

I'm not sure how all of that is in Greek.

I found this in Philo, searching in English:

ON THE CONFUSION OF TONGUES
Those who, as it were, attribute many fathers to existing things, and who represent the company of the gods as numerous, displaying great ignorance of the nature of things and causing great confusion, and making pleasure the proper object of the soul, are those who are, if we must tell the plain truth, spoken of as the builders of the aforesaid city, and of the citadel in it; having increased the efficient causes of the desired end, building them up like houses, being, as I imagine, in no respect different from the children of the harlot whom the law expels from the assembly of God, where it says, "The offspring of a harlot shall not come into the assembly of the Lord."

ON DRUNKENNESS
None of such persons does Moses permit to come into the assembly of God; for he says that, "A man who is bruised or castrated shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord."

ON THE CHANGE OF NAMES
and there are others who are lovers of a system of polytheism, and who honour the company which is devoted to the service of many gods, being the sons of a harlot, having no knowledge of the one husband and father of the virtue-loving soul, namely, God; and are not all these men very properly driven away and banished from the assembly of God?

All of these appear to be talking about the same thing, all referencing Deuteronomy 23.

It would be interesting to see if the term assembly of God was used by God-fearers. I suspect it was, but I can't cite anything to show it.

Ben, you don't happen to have any insight into this article do you? https://brill.com/view/book/97890043449 ... 90_004.xml

cora
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by cora » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:49 pm

Other country: in my country we say "we are going to church" meaning the building. I know some greek, and I looked it up what it meant and where it came from. It was very clear. Never mind.
You of course know that this "church" is only used in the Germanic languages?

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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:55 pm

rgprice wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:19 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:17 pm
I know that ἐκκλησία κυρίου appears at least twice, and ἐκκλησία θεοῦ appears at Nehemiah 13.1.
The NASB has "assembly of the Lord" quite a few times: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... rsion=NASB

I'm not sure how all of that is in Greek.
Here is a raw data dump of the term ἐκκλησία from BibleWorks 10:

Deuteronomy 4:10
9:10
18:16
23:2
3
4
9
31:30
Joshua 9:2
Judges (Alexandrinus) 20:2
21:5
8
Judges 20:2
21:5
8
1 Samuel 17:47
19:20
1 Kings 8:14
22
55
65
1 Chronicles 13:2
4
28:2
8
29:1
10
20
2 Chronicles 1:3
5
6:3
12
13
7:8
10:3
20:5
14
23:3
28:14
29:23
28
31
32
30:2
4
13
17
23
24
25
Ezra 2:64
10:1
8
12
14
Nehemiah 5:7
13
7:66
8:2
17
13:1
Judith 6:16
21
7:29
14:6
1 Maccabees 2:56
3:13
4:59
5:16
14:19
Psalm 21:23
26
25:5
12
34:18
39:10
67:27
88:6
106:32
149:1
Proverbs 5:14
Job 30:28
Wisdom of Sirach 15:5
21:17
23:24
24:2
26:5
31:11
33:19
38:33
39:10
44:15
46:7
50:13
20
Psalms of Solomon 10:6
Micah 2:5
Joel 2:16
Lamentations 1:10
Matthew 16:18
18:17
Acts 5:11
7:38
8:1
3
9:31
11:22
26
12:1
5
13:1
14:23
27
15:3
4
22
41
16:5
18:22
19:32
39
40
20:17
28
Romans 16:1
4
5
16
23
1 Corinthians 1:2
4:17
6:4
7:17
10:32
11:16
18
22
12:28
14:4
5
12
19
23
28
33
34
35
15:9
16:1
19
2 Corinthians 1:1
8:1
18
19
23
24
11:8
28
12:13
Galatians 1:2
13
22
Ephesians 1:22
3:10
21
5:23
24
25
27
29
32
Philippians 3:6
4:15
Colossians 1:18
24
4:15
16
1 Thessalonians 1:1
2:14
2 Thessalonians 1:1
4
1 Timothy 3:5
15
5:16
Philemon 1:2
Hebrews 2:12
12:23
James 5:14
3 John 1:6
9
10
Revelation 1:4
11
20
2:1
7
8
11
12
17
18
23
29
3:1
6
7
13
14
22
22:16

I found this in Philo, searching in English:

ON THE CONFUSION OF TONGUES
Those who, as it were, attribute many fathers to existing things, and who represent the company of the gods as numerous, displaying great ignorance of the nature of things and causing great confusion, and making pleasure the proper object of the soul, are those who are, if we must tell the plain truth, spoken of as the builders of the aforesaid city, and of the citadel in it; having increased the efficient causes of the desired end, building them up like houses, being, as I imagine, in no respect different from the children of the harlot whom the law expels from the assembly of God, where it says, "The offspring of a harlot shall not come into the assembly of the Lord."

ON DRUNKENNESS
None of such persons does Moses permit to come into the assembly of God; for he says that, "A man who is bruised or castrated shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord."

ON THE CHANGE OF NAMES
and there are others who are lovers of a system of polytheism, and who honour the company which is devoted to the service of many gods, being the sons of a harlot, having no knowledge of the one husband and father of the virtue-loving soul, namely, God; and are not all these men very properly driven away and banished from the assembly of God?

All of these appear to be talking about the same thing, all referencing Deuteronomy 23.
Here is a raw data dump from the TLG of the string ἐκκλησ- in Philo:

Philo Judaeus Phil., Legum allegoriarum libri i–iii (0018: 002)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 1”, Ed. Cohn, L.
Berlin: Reimer, 1896, Repr. 1962.
Book 3, section 8, line 5

διό φησι καὶ ὁ θεῖος λόγος· “ἐξαποστειλάτωσαν ἐκ τῆς ἁγίου
ψυχῆς πάντα λεπρὸν καὶ πάντα γονορρυῆ καὶ πάντα ἀκάθαρτον ἐν ψυχῇ,
ἀπὸ ἀρσενικοῦ ἕως θηλυκοῦ” (Num. 5, 2), καὶ τοὺς θλαδίας καὶ ἀπο-
κεκομμένους τὰ γεννητικὰ τῆς ψυχῆς καὶ πόρνους τὴν ἑνὸς ἀρχὴν ἀπο-
διδράσκοντας, οἷς ἄντικρυς ἀπείρηται εἰς ἐκκληςίαν θεοῦ φοιτᾶν (Deut.
23, 2).

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., Legum allegoriarum libri i-iii
Book 3, section 81, line 5

καλείσθω οὖν ὁ μὲν τύραννος ἄρχων πολέμου, ὁ δὲ βασιλεὺς
ἡγεμὼν εἰρήνης, Σαλήμ, καὶ προσφερέτω τῇ ψυχῇ τροφὰς εὐφροσύνης
καὶ χαρᾶς πλήρεις· ἄρτους γὰρ καὶ οἶνον προσφέρει, ἅπερ Ἀμμανῖται
καὶ Μωαβῖται τῷ βλέποντι παρασχεῖν οὐκ ἠθέλησαν, οὗ χάριν ἐκκλη-
ςίας εἴργονται καὶ συλλόγου θείου· Ἀμμανῖται γὰρ οἱ ἐκ τῆς μητρὸς
αἰσθήσεως καὶ Μωαβῖται οἱ ἐκ τοῦ πατρὸς νοῦ φύντες τρόποι δύο ταῦτα
τῶν ὄντων συνεκτικὰ νομίζοντες νοῦν καὶ αἴσθησιν, θεοῦ δὲ μὴ λαμβά-
νοντες ἔννοιαν, “οὐκ εἰσελεύσονται” φησὶ Μωυσῆς “<εἰς ἐκκληςίαν>
κυρίου, .

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., De posteritate Caini (0018: 006)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 2”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1897, Repr. 1962.
Section 144, line 1

ὃ ἀψευδέστατα δοκοῦσιν οἱ Μωυσῇ λέγοντες· “λάλησον
σὺ ἡμῖν, καὶ μὴ λαλείτω πρὸς ἡμᾶς ὁ θεός, μὴ ἀποθάνωμεν” (Exod.
20, 19)· ἔγνωσαν γὰρ ὅτι οὐδὲν ἔχουσι παρ' ἑαυτοῖς ἀξιόχρεων ὄργανον
θεοῦ νομοθετοῦντος ἐκκληςίαν.

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., De posteritate Caini
Section 177, line 3

διὸ καὶ Μωυσῆς τὴν ἀσεβῆ καὶ ἄναγνον αὐτῶν
σπορὰν συλλόγου θείου παντὸς ἀπεσχοίνισε· λέγει γάρ· “Ἀμμανῖται
καὶ Μωαβῖται οὐκ εἰσελεύσονται εἰς ἐκκληςίαν κυρίου” (Deut. 23, 2).

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., Quod deus sit immutabilis (0018: 008)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 2”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1897, Repr. 1962.
Section 111, line 5

ἕτερος δέ τις φιλοσώματος καὶ φιλοπαθὴς νοῦς πραθεὶς
τῇ ἀρχιμαγείρῳ (Gen. 39, 1) τοῦ συγκρίματος ἡμῶν ἡδονῇ καὶ ἐξευ-
νουχισθεὶς τὰ ἄρρενα καὶ γεννητικὰ τῆς ψυχῆς μέρη πάντα, σπάνει
κεχρημένος καλῶν ἐπιτηδευμάτων, ἀκοὴν παραδέξασθαι θείαν ἀδυνα-
τῶν, ἐκκληςίας τῆς ἱερᾶς ἀπεσχοινισμένος (Deut. 23, 1), ἐν ᾗ [σύλλο-
γοι καὶ] λόγοι περὶ ἀρετῆς ἀεὶ μελετῶνται, εἰς μὲν τὸ δεσμωτήριον
τῶν παθῶν εἰσάγεται, χάριν δὲ εὑρίσκει τὴν ἀτιμίας ἀδοξοτέραν παρὰ
τῷ ἀρχιδεσμοφύλακι (Gen. 39, 20. 21).

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., De ebrietate (0018: 011)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 2”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1897, Repr. 1962.
Section 213, line 1

τῶν τοιούτων οὐδενὶ ἐπιτρέπει Μωυσῆς εἰς ἐκκληςίαν ἀφικνεῖσθαι θεοῦ·
λέγει γὰρ ὅτι “θλαδίας καὶ ἀποκεκομμένος οὐκ εἰσελεύσεται εἰς ἐκκλη-
ςίαν κυρίου” (Deut. 23, 1).

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., De confusione linguarum (0018: 013)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 2”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1897, Repr. 1962.
Section 144, line 7

οἱ πολλοὺς ἐπιγραφόμενοι τῶν
ὄντων ὡσανεὶ πατέρας καὶ τὸ πολύθεον εἰσηγούμενοι στῖφος ἀπειρίαν
ὁμοῦ καὶ πολυμιγίαν τῶν πραγμάτων καταχέαντες καὶ τὸ ψυχῆς τέλος
ἡδονῇ παραδόντες δημιουργοὶ τῆς εἰρημένης πόλεως καὶ τῆς κατ' αὐτὴν
ἀκροπόλεως, εἰ δεῖ τἀληθὲς εἰπεῖν, γεγόνασι, τὰ ποιητικὰ τοῦ τέλους
τρόπον οἰκοδομημάτων συναύξοντες, τῶν ἐκ πόρνης ἀποκυηθέντων οὐδέν,
ὥς γ' οἶμαι, διαφέροντες, οὓς ὁ νόμος ἐκκληςίας ἀπελήλακε θείας εἰπών·
“οὐκ εἰσελεύσεται ἐκ πόρνης εἰς ἐκκληςίαν κυρίου” (Deut. 23, 2), ὅτι,
καθάπερ περὶ πολλὰ τέλη πλανώμενοι τοξόται καὶ μηδενὸς εὐστόχως
ἐφιέμενοι σκοποῦ, μυρίας ἀρχὰς καὶ αἰτίας τῆς τῶν ὄντων ὑποθέμενοι
γενέσεως ψευδωνύμους πάσας τὸν ἕνα ποιητὴν καὶ πατέρα τῶν ὅλων
ἠγνόησαν.

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., De migratione Abrahami (0018: 014)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 2”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1897, Repr. 1962.
Section 69, line 4

σημεῖον δέ· ἀμφοτέρας ὁ
νόμος ἐκκληςίας ἱερᾶς ἀπελήλακε, τὴν μὲν ἄθεον θλαδίαν καὶ ἀποκεκομ-
μένον εἴρξας ἐκκληςιάζειν, τὴν δὲ πολύθεον τὸν ἐκ πόρνης ὁμοίως
κωλύσας ἀκούειν ἢ λέγειν (Deut. 23, 1. 2)· ἄθεος μὲν γὰρ ὁ ἄγονος,
πολύθεος δὲ ὁ ἐκ πόρνης τυφλώττων περὶ τὸν ἀληθῆ πατέρα καὶ διὰ
τοῦτο πολλοὺς ἀνθ' ἑνὸς γονεῖς ἐπιγραφόμενος.

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., Quis rerum divinarum heres sit (0018: 015)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 3”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1898, Repr. 1962.
Section 251, line 8

καὶ εὐλογημένος ἔστω”
(Gen. 27, 33), καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦ Ἰακὼβ ἀπιστοῦντος τοῖς λέγουσιν, ὅτι “ζῇ
Ἰωσὴφ καὶ ἄρχει πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου”· “ἐξέστη” γάρ φησι “τῇ δια-
νοίᾳ, οὐ γὰρ ἐπίστευσεν αὐτοῖς” (Gen. 45, 26), καὶ ἐν Ἐξαγωγῇ κατὰ τὴν
ἐκκληςίαν· “τὸ γὰρ ὄρος” φησί “τὸ Σινὰ ἐκαπνίζετο ὅλον διὰ τὸ καταβε-
βηκέναι τὸν θεὸν ἐπ' αὐτὸ ἐν πυρί, καὶ ἀνέβαινεν ὁ καπνὸς ὡσεὶ ἀτμὶς
καμίνου· καὶ ἐξέστη πᾶς ὁ λαὸς σφόδρα” (Exod. 19, 18), καὶ ἐν τῷ
Λευιτικῷ κατὰ τὴν τῶν ἱερῶν τελείωσιν ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ὀγδόῃ, ὁπότε “ἐξ-
ῆλθε πῦρ ἀπ' οὐρανοῦ καὶ κατέφαγε τὰ ἐπὶ τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου, τά τε
ὁλοκαυτώματα καὶ τὰ στέατα”· λέγεται γὰρ εὐθύς· “καὶ εἶδε
πᾶς ὁ λαὸς καὶ ἐξέστη, καὶ ἔπεσαν ἐπὶ πρόσωπον” (Lev. 9, 24)·
ἡ γὰρ τοιαύτη ἔκστασις πτόησιν καὶ δεινὴν κατάπληξιν ἐμποιεῖ –
(ἀλλ' οὐκ ἄξιον θαυμάσαι καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦ Ἠσαῦ, ὅτι εἰδὼς κυνηγεῖν
ἀεὶ θηρεύεται καὶ πτερνίζεται τὴν τέχνην ἐπὶ βλάβῃ κτησάμενος, οὐκ

Go to Context


Philo Judaeus Phil., De mutatione nominum (0018: 018)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 3”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1898, Repr. 1962.
Section 205, line 1

δεόντως οὖν εὔχεται ὁ ἀστεῖος, ἵν' οὗτος μόνος Ἰσμαὴλ ὑγιαίνῃ,
διὰ τοὺς μὴ γνησίως ἀκούοντας τῶν ἱερῶν ὑφηγήσεων· οἷς ἀπεῖπε
Μωυσῆς ἄντικρυς εἰς ἐκκληςίαν φοιτᾶν τοῦ πανηγεμόνος.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De somniis (lib. i–ii) (0018: 019)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 3”, Ed. Wendland, P.
Berlin: Reimer, 1898, Repr. 1962.
Book 2, section 184, line 7

διὰ τοῦτο ἐγὼ μὲν ὁ τοῦ Φαραὼ κατὰ τὰς ἀνέσεις ἐπιτεινομένου τὸν
σκληραύχενα καὶ πάντων ἀκράτορα λογισμὸν εὐνοῦχός εἰμι (Gen. 40, 1. 2),
τὰ γεννητικὰ τῆς ψυχῆς ἐκτετμημένος, μετανάστης μὲν τῆς ἀνδρωνί-
τιδος, φυγὰς δὲ καὶ τῆς γυναικωνίτιδος, οὔτ' ἄρρεν οὔτε θῆλυ, οὔτε
προέσθαι οὔθ' ὑποδέξασθαι σπορὰν δυνάμενος, ἀμφίβολος, οὐδέτερος,
ἀνθρωπείου παράκομμα νομίσματος, ἄμοιρος ἀθανασίας, ἣ τέκνων ἢ
ἐγγόνων διαδοχαῖς εἰς ἀεὶ ζωπυρεῖται, συλλόγου καὶ ἐκκληςίας ἱερᾶς
ἀπεσχοινισμένος· θλαδίαν γὰρ καὶ ἀποκεκομμένον ἄντικρυς διείρηται μὴ
εἰσιέναι (Deut. 23, 1).

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De somniis (lib. i-ii)
Book 2, section 187, line 2

ὁ δὲ τούτων ὑφηγητὴς ὁμοῦ καὶ πατὴρ οὐχ ἡ τυχοῦσα
μοῖρα τῆς ἱερᾶς ἐκκληςίας ἐστίν, ἀλλ' οὗ χωρὶς σύγκλητος οὐκ ἂν
ἀθροισθείη ποτὲ τῶν τῆς ψυχῆς μερῶν βουλὴ τὸ παράπαν, ὁ πρόεδρος,
ὁ πρύτανις, ὁ δημιουργός, ὁ καὶ χωρὶς ἄλλων μόνος ἐφ' ἑαυτοῦ σκοπεῖν
τε καὶ πράττειν ἕκαστα ἱκανός.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De Abrahamo (0018: 020)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 4”, Ed. Cohn, L.
Berlin: Reimer, 1902, Repr. 1962.
Section 20, line 2

καὶ ἄλλως ὁ μὲν φαῦλος ἀγορὰν καὶ θέατρα καὶ δικαστήρια
βουλευτήριά τε καὶ ἐκκληςίας καὶ πάντα σύλλογον καὶ θίασον ἀνθρώπων
ἅτε φιλοπραγμοσύνῃ συζῶν μετατρέχει, τὴν μὲν γλῶτταν ἀνιεὶς πρὸς
ἄμετρον καὶ ἀπέραντον καὶ ἄκριτον διήγησιν, συγχέων ἅπαντα καὶ φύρων,
ἀληθέσι ψευδῆ καὶ ῥητοῖς ἄρρητα καὶ ἴδια κοινοῖς καὶ ἱεροῖς βέβηλα
καὶ σπουδαίοις γελοῖα ἀναμιγνύς, διὰ τὸ μὴ πεπαιδεῦσθαι τὸ ἐν καιρῷ
κάλλιστον, ἡσυχίαν, τὰ δὲ ὦτα ἐπουρίσας ἕνεκα πολυπράγμονος περιερ-
γίας· τὰ γὰρ ἑτέρων εἴτε ἀγαθὰ εἴτ' αὖ κακὰ γλίχεται μανθάνειν, ὡς
αὐτίκα τοῖς μὲν φθονεῖν, ἐφ' οἷς δὲ ἥδεσθαι· βάσκανον γὰρ καὶ μισόκαλον
καὶ φιλοπόνηρον ὁ φαῦλος φύσει.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De Josepho (0018: 021)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 4”, Ed. Cohn, L.
Berlin: Reimer, 1902, Repr. 1962.
Section 73, line 2

ἐάν τε βουλεύω, γνώμας εἰσηγήσομαι
τὰς κοινωφελεῖς, κἂν μὴ πρὸς ἡδονὴν ὦσιν· ἐάν τε ἐκκληςιάζω, τοὺς
θῶπας λόγους ἑτέροις καταλιπὼν τοῖς σωτηρίοις χρήσομαι καὶ συμφέ-
ρουσιν, ἐπιτιμῶν, νουθετῶν, σωφρονίζων, οὐκ αὐθάδειαν μανιώδη καὶ
παράφορον ἀλλὰ νήφουσαν παρρησίαν ἐπιτετηδευκώς.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De decalogo (0018: 023)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 4”, Ed. Cohn, L.
Berlin: Reimer, 1902, Repr. 1962.
Section 32, line 4

τοὺς δέκα λόγους ἢ χρησμούς, νόμους ἢ θεσμοὺς πρὸς
ἀλήθειαν ὄντας, ἀθροισθέντος τοῦ ἔθνους ἀνδρῶν ὁμοῦ καὶ γυναικῶν
εἰς ἐκκληςίαν, ὁ πατὴρ τῶν ὅλων ἐθέσπισεν.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De decalogo
Section 39, line 1

δεύτερον δέ, ὅτι κοινῇ μὲν ὡς πλήθει τις ἐκκληςιάζων οὐκ ἐξ ἀνάγκης
διαλέγεται ἑνί, ὅτε δὲ προστάττων ἢ ἀπαγορεύων, ἰδίᾳ ὡς ἑνὶ ἑκάστῳ
τῶν ἐμφερομένων εὐθὺς ἂν δόξαι τὰ πρακτέα καὶ κοινῇ πᾶσιν ἀθρόοις
ὑφηγεῖσθαι· εὐπειθέστερος δὲ ὁ τὰς παραινέσεις αὐτοπροσώπως δεχόμενος,
ὁ δὲ συλλήβδην μεθ' ἑτέρων κεκώφωται τὸν ὄχλον ἀφηνιασμοῦ παρα-
κάλυμμα ποιούμενος.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De decalogo
Section 45, line 6

παρειστήκει δὲ ὁ λεὼς ἁγνεύσας
ὁμιλιῶν τῶν πρὸς γυναῖκας καὶ πασῶν ἡδονῶν ἔξω τῶν πρὸς τροφὰς
ἀναγκαίων ἀποσχόμενος, λουτροῖς τε καὶ περιρραντηρίοις καθηράμενος
ἐκ τριῶν ἡμερῶν, ἔτι καὶ τὰς ἐσθῆτας ἀποπλυνάμενος, ἐν τοῖς μάλιστα
λευχείμων, ἀκροβατῶν καὶ ἀνωρθιακὼς τὰ ὦτα, Μωυσέως προδηλώ-
σαντος εὐτρεπίζεσθαι πρὸς ἐκκληςίαν· ἔγνω γὰρ αὐτὴν ἐσομένην, ἡνίκα
μόνος ἀνακληθεὶς ἐχρησμῳδεῖτο.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De specialibus legibus (lib. i–iv) (0018: 024)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 5”, Ed. Cohn, L.
Berlin: Reimer, 1906, Repr. 1962.
Book 1, section 55, line 6

καὶ ἐπιτετράφθαι δὲ καλὸν ἅπασι τοῖς ζῆλον ἔχουσιν ἀρετῆς ἐκ χειρὸς
ἀναπράττειν ἀνυπερθέτως τὰς τιμωρίας, μήτ' εἰς δικαστήριον μήτ' εἰς
βουλευτήριον μήτε συνόλως ἐπ' ἀρχὴν ἄγοντας, ἀλλὰ τῷ παραστάντι μισο-
πονήρῳ πάθει καὶ φιλοθέῳ καταχρῆσθαι πρὸς τὰς τῶν ἀσεβῶν ἀπαραιτή-
τους κολάσεις, νομίσαντας αὐτοὺς ὑπὸ τοῦ καιροῦ τὰ πάντα γεγενῆσθαι,
βουλευτάς, δικαστάς, στρατηγούς, ἐκκληςιαστάς, κατηγόρους, μάρτυρας,
νόμους, δῆμον, ἵνα μηδενὸς ὄντος ἐμποδὼν ἄφοβοι σὺν ἀδείᾳ πολλῇ προα-
γωνίζωνται ὁσιότητος.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De specialibus legibus (lib. i-iv)
Book 1, section 325, line 1

ἐπιστάμενος γοῦν ἐν ταῖς ἐκκληςίαις οὐκ ὀλίγους τῶν
μοχθηρῶν παρεισρέοντας καὶ διὰ τὸ συνειλεγμένον πλῆθος λανθάνοντας,
ἵνα μὴ τοῦτο γένηται, προανείργει πάντας τοὺς ἀναξίους ἱεροῦ συλλόγου
τὴν ἀρχὴν ποιούμενος ἀπὸ τῶν νοσούντων τὴν θήλειαν νόσον ἀνδρο-
γύνων, οἳ τὸ φύσεως νόμισμα παρακόπτοντες εἰς ἀκολάστων γυναικῶν
πάθη καὶ μορφὰς εἰσβιάζονται· θλαδίας γὰρ καὶ ἀποκεκομμένους τὰ
γεννητικὰ ἐλαύνει τό τε τῆς ὥρας ταμιεύοντας ἄνθος, ἵνα μὴ ῥᾳδίως
μαραίνοιτο, καὶ τὸν ἄρρενα τύπον μεταχαράττοντας εἰς θηλύμορφον ἰδέαν.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De specialibus legibus (lib. i-iv)
Book 2, section 44, line 5

ὅσοι γὰρ ἢ παρ' Ἕλλησιν | ἢ παρὰ βαρβάροις
ἀσκηταὶ σοφίας εἰσὶν ἀνεπιλήπτως καὶ ἀνυπαιτίως ζῶντες, μήτε ἀδικεῖ-
σθαι μήτε ἀνταδικεῖν αἱρούμενοι, τὰς τῶν φιλοπραγμόνων ὁμιλίας ἐκτρέ-
πονται καὶ τὰ χωρία, ἐν οἷς ποιοῦνται τὰς διατριβάς, προβέβληνται,
δικαστήρια καὶ βουλευτήρια καὶ ἀγορὰς καὶ ἐκκληςίας καὶ συνόλως ὅπου
τις τῶν εἰκαιοτέρων ἀνθρώπων θίασος ἢ σύλλογος, οἷα βίον ἀπόλεμον
καὶ εἰρηναῖον ἐζηλωκότες, θεωροὶ τῆς φύσεως καὶ τῶν ἐν αὐτῇ πάντων
ἄριστοι, γῆν καὶ θάλατταν καὶ ἀέρα καὶ οὐρανὸν καὶ τὰς ἐν αὐτοῖς
φύσεις διερευνώμενοι, σελήνῃ καὶ ἡλίῳ καὶ τῇ χορείᾳ τῶν ἄλλων ἀστέρων
πλανήτων τε καὶ ἀπλανῶν ταῖς διανοίαις συμπεριπολοῦντες, τὰ μὲν
σώματα κάτω πρὸς χέρσον ἱδρυμένοι, τὰς δὲ ψυχὰς ὑποπτέρους κατα-
σκευάζοντες, ὅπως αἰθεροβατοῦντες τὰς ἐκεῖ δυνάμεις περιαθρῶσιν, οἷα
χρὴ τοὺς τῷ ὄντι κοσμοπολῖται γενομένους, οἳ τὸν μὲν κόσμον ἐνόμισαν
εἶναι πόλιν, πολίτας δὲ τοὺς σοφίας ὁμιλητάς, ἀρετῆς ἐγγραφούσης, ἣ

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De virtutibus (0018: 025)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 5”, Ed. Cohn, L.
Berlin: Reimer, 1906, Repr. 1962.
Section 108, line 4

ἀλλ' ὅμως ἐπειδὴ τὴν ἀρχὴν ἐδέξαντο τὰς πόλεις οὐκ ἀπο-
κλείσαντες οὐδὲ τὴν χώραν ἄβατον τοῖς ἥκουσι παρασκευάσαντες, ἐχέ-
τωσαν προνομίαν, φησί, τῆς ὑποδοχῆς τὸ ἔνσπονδον· κἂν εἴ τινες
ἐθελήσειαν αὐτῶν μεταλλάξασθαι πρὸς τὴν Ἰουδαίων πολιτείαν, οὐχ ὡς
ἐχθρῶν παῖδας ἀσυμβάτως σκορακιστέον, ἀλλ' οὕτως προσεκτέον, ὡς
τρίτην γενεὰν καλεῖν τε εἰς ἐκκληςίαν (ibid. v. 8) καὶ μεταδιδόναι λόγων
θείων, οἷς θέμις καὶ τοὺς αὐτόχθονας καὶ εὐπατρίδας ἱεροφαντεῖσθαι.

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Philo Judaeus Phil., Quod omnis probus liber sit (0018: 027)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 6”, Ed. Cohn, L., Reiter, S.
Berlin: Reimer, 1915, Repr. 1962.
Section 6, line 3

πῶς γὰρ οὐκ ἐκτόπια καὶ θαύματ' ὄντως, φυγάδας μὲν καλεῖν τοὺς
μὴ μόνον ἐν μέσῃ τῇ πόλει διατρίβοντας, ἀλλὰ καὶ βουλεύοντας καὶ δικάζοντας
καὶ ἐκκληςιάζοντας, ἔστι δ' ὅτε καὶ ἀγορανομίας καὶ γυμνασιαρχίας καὶ
τὰς ἄλλας λειτουργίας ὑπομένοντας, πολίτας δὲ τοὺς ἢ μὴ ἐγγραφέντας
τὸ παράπαν ἢ ὧν ἀτιμία καὶ φυγὴ κατέγνωσται, πέραν ὅρων ἀνθρώπους
ἐληλαμένους, οὐ μόνον οὐκ ἐπιβῆναι τῆς χώρας ἀλλ' οὐδ' ἐξ ἀπόπτου τὸ
πατρῷον ἔδαφος θεάσασθαι δυναμένους, εἰ μή τισι Ποιναῖς ἐλαύνοιν-
το θανατῶντες;

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Philo Judaeus Phil., Quod omnis probus liber sit
Section 138, line 1

βουλαί τε γὰρ καὶ ἐκκληςίαι καθ' ἑκάστην σχεδὸν ἡμέραν ἀθροίζονται
περὶ τίνος μᾶλλον ἢ ἐλευθερίας παρούσης μὲν βεβαιώσεως, εἰ δ' ἀπείη,
κτήσεως;

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Philo Judaeus Phil., De aeternitate mundi (0018: 029)
“Philonis Alexandrini opera quae supersunt, vol. 6”, Ed. Cohn, L., Reiter, S.
Berlin: Reimer, 1915, Repr. 1962.
Section 13, line 2

γενητὸν δὲ καὶ ἄφθαρτόν φασιν ὑπὸ Πλάτωνος ἐν Τιμαίῳ δηλοῦσθαι
διὰ τῆς θεοπρεποῦς ἐκκληςίας, ἐν ᾗ λέγεται πρὸς τοὺς νεωτέρους θεοὺς
ὑπὸ τοῦ πρεσβυτάτου καὶ ἡγεμόνος· “θεοὶ θεῶν, <ὧν> ἐγὼ δημιουργὸς
πατήρ τε ἔργων, ἄλυτα ἐμοῦ γε μὴ θέλοντος.

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Ben, you don't happen to have any insight into this article do you? https://brill.com/view/book/97890043449 ... 90_004.xml
Never read it, no, sorry.

Please bear in mind that there is a contingent of scholars who believe most of what we think of when we speak of the Godfearers to be basically a modern myth. I have not given the matter a great deal of study beyond a central core of the usual inscriptions and literary references, so I have no current opinion on the matter. If the Godfearers are important to your reconstruction, though, I would definitely look into that entire affair.

cora
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:57 pm

Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by cora » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:22 pm

Price, simply going on and on with wrong ideas, building on assumptons which are false. Did Paul wrote "churches"? In any form? NO, NO, NO.
But his letters say...………...That is the wrong translation!!!!! Paul says ekklesia, or ekklesia of God. Anything wrong with that? He founded them himself. Nothing was earlier existing!!!! So Paul did not write church, and did not mean church. IT WAS TRANSLATED AS CHURCH LATER. Nothing to do with Paul. As the CHURCH of rome took over there, Paul's ekklesia's were simply replaced by churches, but they were no churches.
The rest of what you say is in connection to Paul complete nonsense. He founded ekklesia's which where changed by the church of rome into churches.
I don't know where you get your ideas. The word ekklesia from Paul, and the word church coming from rome: it is not that complicated all. No need to draw all kinds of other groups into it.

User avatar
Jax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:10 am

Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Jax » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:26 pm

cora wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:22 pm
Price, simply going on and on with wrong ideas, building on assumptons which are false. Did Paul wrote "churches"? In any form? NO, NO, NO.
But his letters say...………...That is the wrong translation!!!!! Paul says ekklesia, or ekklesia of God. Anything wrong with that? He founded them himself. Nothing was earlier existing!!!! So Paul did not write church, and did not mean church. IT WAS TRANSLATED AS CHURCH LATER. Nothing to do with Paul. As the CHURCH of rome took over there, Paul's ekklesia's were simply replaced by churches, but they were no churches.
The rest of what you say is in connection to Paul complete nonsense. He founded ekklesia's which where changed by the church of rome into churches.
I don't know where you get your ideas. The word ekklesia from Paul, and the word church coming from rome: it is not that complicated all. No need to draw all kinds of other groups into it.
Uh, cora, I think you will find that Price is on our side. :?

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