Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

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Jax
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Jax » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:33 pm

I think, cora, that you are going to find that most of us here find Paul's letters to be a core Paul with other authors making additions.

This is not a new idea for us.

hakeem
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by hakeem » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:52 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:23 am
According to my research on the very beginning of Christianity, Paul participated in the persecution of Greek speaking proto-Christian Jews. They belonged to the "assembly/church of God", an expression Paul used for Christian "assembly/church", as in 1 Co 1:2.

Cordially, Bernard
Can you name one of the "Greek speaking proto-Christian Jews" that NT Paul persecuted? Or are you making another speculation from silence?

I hope you are not referring to the Jews who started to speak multiple languages [other tongues] fluently after they received the Ghost on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.

By the way, Josephus in "Antiquities of the Jews" 20 claimed that Jews are not encourage to learn other languages and that he himself had difficulty pronouncing Greek words.

Antiquities of the Jews 20.11.2
I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations....


Bernard Muller
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:06 pm

to Jax,
Paul's letters to be a core Paul with other authors making additions.
I agree.
Through my study on 1 & 2 Corinthians, outside, for each, the combination of three original Paul's letters into one, I found these following interpolations:
For 1 Corinthians: 1:4-9, 11:23-28, 14:33b-35, 15:3-11, 15:23-28 & 15:56
For 2 Corinthians: 1:1-2, 5:10, 6:14-7:1, 13:11-14

I also found interpolations in 1 Thessalonians, Philippians, Galatians and Romans.

Cordially, Bernard

hakeem
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by hakeem » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:13 pm

rgprice wrote:....Paul tells us that he was a devout Jew, and presumably he was persecuting the "assembly of God" because of his devotion to Judaism. But we've also seen that the term "assembly of God" would have been understood by Jews to be something entirely Jewish.
The words of the so-called Pauline writer come straight out of the mouth of Josephus.

Antiquities of the Jews 20.11.2
For those of my own nation freely acknowledge that I far exceed them in the learning belonging to Jews...


This is the so-called Paul in Galatians 1.14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

NT Paul made up stories about himself using the writings of Josephus which were composed in the 13th year of Domitian c 94 CE.

cora
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by cora » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:31 pm

I see the guessing goes on, which is just guessing. You even read: it doesn't make sense. Right: it doesn't. Because Paul did not write it. I see that:
- this whole forum still does not know that Paul has been interpolated heavily. Paul did not persecute anybody, this piece is fake. Paul has been only one time in Judea in his life. Why? Because he is not a jew, not by nation and not by religion. And all that BS about it is FAKE. Yo can go on for years about it and what he all might have meant, you are simply analysing forgeries. Paul's Lord is in the universe, which means he has no brother on earth. A simple forgery, being done by the one who is going to sell Jesus as a human being. But even Carrier does not get it. Because all that is in the letters is written by Paul. BIG MISTAKE. Nothing will EVER be solved. A jew going to gentiles to tell that they do not have to worry about circumcision. Like I said before: where do you get that? You know absolutely nothing about jews, only about Christian writings and books. More prejudice you cannot get together. Keep on fantasising and guessing.
And I am simply talking to a brick wall. As usual. People do not want to know anything. They cling to their catholic scriptures, which were not even seen before the year 200. But that does not matter, they are 99% true. Never wanted to know why they were seen only in 200? Were they hidden? Please!! Well, in 200 the catholic church started, this is a fact. Go figure out the rest yourselves.
I just want to prevent that Paul is seen as a jew visiting assemblies. Paul is a greek, and he is founding a gnostic religion, on his own. That is Paul. Difficult to imagine? Try your phantasising on that.
Paul's religion: moderate gnostic.
Paul's nation: he was very small, with something crocked (his leg or his back), he had red hair (balding young), a red beard, a very pale skin which is why his skin burned completely in the summer, eyebrows without an opening between, and blue eyes. A TYPICAL JEW of the time. He was greek or something, greek was his first language.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:50 pm

to hakeem,
Can you name one of the "Greek speaking proto-Christian Jews" that NT Paul persecuted? Or are you making another speculation from silence?
I cannot know for sure, but possibly some among that group: Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism" (Ac6:5). And that's not a speculation from silence, but through thorough analysis, which I explained at the beginning of http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html.
BTW, I don't rest my argumentation on argument from silence, as you do for Celsus.
But if I do (which happens occasionally), that's after I put forward arguments from positive & existing evidence.
I hope you are not referring to the Jews who started to speak multiple languages [other tongues] fluently after they received the Ghost on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.
OH NO. I explained why I categorically see the Pentecost event as a complete fiction: http://historical-jesus.info/12.html
By the way, Josephus in "Antiquities of the Jews" 20 claimed that Jews are not encourage to learn other languages and that he himself had difficulty pronouncing Greek words.
But if they move outside of Israel, they had to learn Greek.
I know by experience, when I studied in France, I was very bad in learning English. What for, I thought, everybody speak French here. But when, for a variety of reasons, I moved to Western Canada, I had to learn English and as Josephus for Greek, I had (still has) difficulty in pronouncing English words.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cora
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by cora » Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:07 pm

As long as someone is seriously (from the letters) is saying that Paul is a jew, who was visiting existing assemblies of godfearers, and that he of course did not found anything himself, laughing about that, I cannot let go. Such total BS I have not heard in a long time.
Paul began a new religion and founded it himself, working hard for about 30 years. That it was not easy you can see in these letters. I also do not want HIM put down by someone "who knows it all". Paul is not a jew, Paul is not preaching Jahweh, in fact he calls his (gnostic of course) son of god: LORD.
I suppose the word "LORD" means something to everybody. He is not talking about Jesus, and he is certainly not talking about Christ. He is preaching a god, NOT a messiah. A messiah is and was and has always been a normal HUMAN BEING. People don't even know that.
Hai Lane, thank you for your calming remarks.

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Jax
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by Jax » Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:53 pm

cora wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:07 pm
As long as someone is seriously (from the letters) is saying that Paul is a jew, who was visiting existing assemblies of godfearers, and that he of course did not found anything himself, laughing about that, I cannot let go. Such total BS I have not heard in a long time.
Paul began a new religion and founded it himself, working hard for about 30 years. That it was not easy you can see in these letters. I also do not want HIM put down by someone "who knows it all". Paul is not a jew, Paul is not preaching Jahweh, in fact he calls his (gnostic of course) son of god: LORD.
I suppose the word "LORD" means something to everybody. He is not talking about Jesus, and he is certainly not talking about Christ. He is preaching a god, NOT a messiah. A messiah is and was and has always been a normal HUMAN BEING. People don't even know that.
Hai Lane, thank you for your calming remarks.
Yeah, no problem. Don't know if you have had a chance to view this but you might enjoy it viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3487&hilit=Paul

hakeem
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by hakeem » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:03 pm

Jax wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:33 pm
I think, cora, that you are going to find that most of us here find Paul's letters to be a core Paul with other authors making additions.

This is not a new idea for us.
I want to publicly disassociate myself from such a statement. I cannot find any historical evidence of an apostle called Paul who wrote letters to Churches. Not even NT writers corroborate that an apostle called Paul wrote a single letter to anyone anywhere at any time.

hakeem
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Re: Galatians 1:21-24 : churches of Judea

Post by hakeem » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:39 pm

hakeem wrote:Can you name one of the "Greek speaking proto-Christian Jews" that NT Paul persecuted? Or are you making another speculation from silence?
Bernard Muller wrote:I cannot know for sure, but possibly some among that group: Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism" (Ac6:5). And that's not a speculation from silence, but through thorough analysis, which I explained at the beginning of http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html.
BTW, I don't rest my argumentation on argument from silence, as you do for Celsus.
But if I do (which happens occasionally), that's after I put forward arguments from positive & existing evidence.
At least you have now admitted you do make arguments from silence. And as I expected you really have no historical evidence for "Greek speaking proto-Christian Jews".

Origen in "Against Celsus" did say that Celsus wrote nothing about Paul in his "True Discourse" against Christianity.
hakeem wrote:I hope you are not referring to the Jews who started to speak multiple languages [other tongues] fluently after they received the Ghost on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.
Bernard Muller wrote:OH NO. I explained why I categorically see the Pentecost event as a complete fiction: http://historical-jesus.info/12.html
You only use the fiction in Acts as historical accounts?
hakeem wrote:By the way, Josephus in "Antiquities of the Jews" 20 claimed that Jews are not encourage to learn other languages and that he himself had difficulty pronouncing Greek words.
Bernard Muller wrote: But if they move outside of Israel, they had to learn Greek.
I know by experience, when I studied in France, I was very bad in learning English. What for, I thought, everybody speak French here. But when, for a variety of reasons, I moved to Western Canada, I had to learn English and as Josephus for Greek, I had (still has) difficulty in pronouncing English words.
You have missed the point. Josephus claimed that Jewish people are not encourage to learn other languages but to learn the laws of the Jews. And, it would be almost impossible to find a Jew who was worshiping a man as a God.

There was no known Jew who was a Christian, fluent in Greek or not, worshiping a man as a God in the history of the Jews so you would not be able to find any unless you believe Peter and the Apostles converted Jews on the day of Pentecost after they were filled with a Ghost and talked in tongues.

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