Who wrote the Pauline Letters? Who was Paul?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Who wrote the Pauline Letters? Who was Paul?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 pm

hakeem wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:18 pm
Most of the so-called Pauline Epistles to Churches are not really personal letters. They are addressed to the Churches and supposed to be publicly read to the congregants.
Yet there is not any indication there was to- and from- dialogue between these 'churches' or members of their congregations and Paul

hakeem wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:18 pm
What is most bizarre is who would forge a letter to Timothy asking him to deliver Paul's cloak and books to Paul himself when Paul would have known he did not write to Timothy and never made such a request?
That's not a logical question: it's premises are non-sequiturs.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Who wrote the Pauline Letters? Who was Paul?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 pm

The relatively new sub-field of NT study, Empire Studies, which involves study of the way in which New Testament texts engage and respond to the imperial world in which they were written, might be pertinent to the production of the Pauline letters.

eg. these chapters in the 2016 multi-author book, An Introduction to Empire in the New Testament -

Paul and Empire 1 ......................................p.143
Paul and Empire 2 ......................................p.165
Colossians Ephesians and Empire ....................p.185
Construing and Containing an Imperial Paul .......p.203

Confronting Roman Imperial Claims ................p.255
Victory and Visibility ..................................p.273

robert j
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Re: Who wrote the Pauline Letters? Who was Paul?

Post by robert j » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:51 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 pm

Yet there is not any indication there was to- and from- dialogue between these 'churches' or members of their congregations and Paul

For I have been informed concerning you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. (1 Corinthians 1:11)

Now concerning the things about which you wrote: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. (1 Corinthians 7:1)

I rejoice over the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, because they have supplied what was lacking on your part. For they have refreshed my spirit and yours. Therefore acknowledge such men. The assemblies of Asia greet you. (1 Corinthians 16:17-19)


Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it best to be left behind alone at Athens, and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you ... But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us ... (1 Thessalonians 3:1-6)


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MrMacSon
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Re: Who wrote the Pauline Letters? Who was Paul?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:14 pm

robert j wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:51 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 pm
Yet there is not any indication there was to- and from- dialogue between these 'churches' or members of their congregations and Paul

For I have been informed concerning you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. (1 Corinthians 1:11)

Now concerning the things about which you wrote: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. (1 Corinthians 7:1)

I rejoice over the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, because they have supplied what was lacking on your part. For they have refreshed my spirit and yours. Therefore acknowledge such men. The assemblies of Asia greet you. (1 Corinthians 16:17-19)


Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it best to be left behind alone at Athens, and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you ... But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us ... (1 Thessalonians 3:1-6)

Cheers Robert, I was wrong to be so adamant, though I was thinking and referring to indications of correspondence from and among some of these several, albeit distant-from-each churches over a period of time. I acknowledge those 1 Corinthians verses would likely be authentic.

hakeem
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Re: Who wrote the Pauline Letters? Who was Paul?

Post by hakeem » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:10 pm

hakeem wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:18 pm
Most of the so-called Pauline Epistles to Churches are not really personal letters. They are addressed to the Churches and supposed to be publicly read to the congregants.
MrMacSon wrote:Yet there is not any indication there was to- and from- dialogue between these 'churches' or members of their congregations and Paul
I would not have expected the supposed Churches or members to write or dialogue with Paul since they did not get any letters and the apostle called Paul did not exist. Even in the fiction story of Acts it is not claimed that Saul or Paul wrote letters to Churches.
hakeem wrote:
What is most bizarre is who would forge a letter to Timothy asking him to deliver Paul's cloak and books to Paul himself when Paul would have known he did not write to Timothy and never made such a request?
MrMacSon wrote:That's not a logical question: it's premises are non-sequiturs.
I completely disagree with you. Of course such a question is pertinent. It is claimed the Epistles to Timothy are forgeries so it must be asked who would have forged a letter under the name of Paul to Timothy asking him to deliver Paul's cloak and books to Paul himself?

2 Timothy 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments

If Paul did not write to Timothy then who did? Somebody must have written the passage.

hakeem
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Re: Who wrote the Pauline Letters? Who was Paul?

Post by hakeem » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:26 pm

robert j wrote:

For I have been informed concerning you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. (1 Corinthians 1:11)

Now concerning the things about which you wrote: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. (1 Corinthians 7:1)

I rejoice over the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, because they have supplied what was lacking on your part. For they have refreshed my spirit and yours. Therefore acknowledge such men. The assemblies of Asia greet you. (1 Corinthians 16:17-19)


Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it best to be left behind alone at Athens, and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you ... But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us ... (1 Thessalonians 3:1-6)

One cannot use the very same letters in question to show that there was dialogue between the so-called Paul and the Churches when it is claimed the letters themselves may have been manipulated.

In order to show that the Churches were in dialogue with Paul one must at least find letters from the Churches addressed to Paul.

Merely quoting the so-called Pauline Epistles is not evidence at all that any actual Church received them.

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