Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Secret Alias »

So you have ambiguity, pettiness and mendacity. A deadly mix.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:00 pm Roth's book is utter lunacy. Everyone since Harnack has done this "maximal" excavation of any passing reference to any Lukan text made in the same breath as Marcion. But Irenaeus EXPLICITLY SAYS I have the pure text, I have the pristine gospel so there is a mix of "you see why Marcion doesn't like this" but more often than not a HYPOTHETICAL reference to why Marcion WOULD hate this passage. But it's all so ambiguous. Completely insane that anyone could know whether or not Marcion actually had a given passage or not beyond about 15 or 25 one line references
Roth agrees with you, at least in principle:

Dieter Roth, The Text of Marcion’s Gospel, page 81:[/b] 81 It is crucial to recognize that in this approach to reconstructing Marcion’s Gospel text, Marcion’s theological tendencies will not be invoked in the evaluation of a source’s testimony. Thus, I am consciously embracing and agreeing with Schmid’s perspective when he wrote, “I would prefer to see appeals to Marcionite tendency banned from any serious reconstruction of the Marcionite text. We need to first of all screen our sources for the Marcionite text against themselves in order to better understand their theological agendas and rhetorical strategies.”

Do you think that Roth failed to rid himself of appeals to Marcionite tendency in his reconstruction? If so, can you give an example or two?
perseusomega9
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by perseusomega9 »

I go away for one day for a beach trip and come back to find another great Ben thread idea.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I've always liked this table from Neil's site. http://vridar.info/xorigins/justinnarr.htm
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Secret Alias »

Do you think that Roth failed to rid himself of appeals to Marcionite tendency in his reconstruction?
Many layers to the problem.

1. Against Marcion opens with "this is a thrice copied text by multiple authors." Does Roth address the hearsay nature of the text thrice removed from a core who knows WTF it was text? NO.

2. Does Roth go beyond what Irenaeus tells people is the situation with Marcion? Absolutely not. So he lives or dies by the veracity of Irenaeus.

3. Are there enough "good nuggets" in the sources to reconstruct Marcion's gospel? No. Should have been a "here's what is said about various passages."

4. Last but not least. Is the author of the third revision distorting an original text which argued from Luke or the gospel of the original author (which he claimed Marcion falsified) against Marcion? Yes. Does Roth say this or address this? No.

So in my estimation Roth exhibited all the skill and dedication to publish his thesis but so what? He successfully exhibited virtue in the academic field and that's all.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Secret Alias »

And I say yes to 4 because Irenaeus says this will be the plan to his Against Marcion.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

perseusomega9 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:28 pm I go away for one day for a beach trip and come back to find another great Ben thread idea.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I've always liked this table from Neil's site. http://vridar.info/xorigins/justinnarr.htm
I like that table, too. It is one of about 5 different resources I regularly use when trying to track down Justin's gospel parallels.
perseusomega9
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by perseusomega9 »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:52 pm
perseusomega9 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:28 pm I go away for one day for a beach trip and come back to find another great Ben thread idea.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I've always liked this table from Neil's site. http://vridar.info/xorigins/justinnarr.htm
I like that table, too. It is one of about 5 different resources I regularly use when trying to track down Justin's gospel parallels.
To compound the epicycles you might like this post from Markus Vinzent's blog, another (much shorter) table to compare with Neil's to compare with Table Xn, to compare with Table Xn-1,...
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Secret Alias »

The desire to believe Irenaeus when he says (with Tertullian) that there was a fourfold gospel since John and Marcion "broke in" and stole just Luke and falsified it to make his own gospel shows religious scholars don't get out much. Totally implausible. Except for the fact that people are baptized into this stupidity and the rest of the world doesnt care because it is a dying stupidity. I hang around because I like to mix up my exposure to stupidity. Illiterate stupidity literate stupidity. Nice to mix things up.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:08 pm
Secret Alias wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:00 pm Roth's book is utter lunacy. Everyone since Harnack has done this "maximal" excavation of any passing reference to any Lukan text made in the same breath as Marcion. But Irenaeus EXPLICITLY SAYS I have the pure text, I have the pristine gospel so there is a mix of "you see why Marcion doesn't like this" but more often than not a HYPOTHETICAL reference to why Marcion WOULD hate this passage. But it's all so ambiguous. Completely insane that anyone could know whether or not Marcion actually had a given passage or not beyond about 15 or 25 one line references
Roth agrees with you, at least in principle:

Dieter Roth, The Text of Marcion’s Gospel, page 81:[/b] 81 It is crucial to recognize that in this approach to reconstructing Marcion’s Gospel text, Marcion’s theological tendencies will not be invoked in the evaluation of a source’s testimony. Thus, I am consciously embracing and agreeing with Schmid’s perspective when he wrote, “I would prefer to see appeals to Marcionite tendency banned from any serious reconstruction of the Marcionite text. We need to first of all screen our sources for the Marcionite text against themselves in order to better understand their theological agendas and rhetorical strategies.”

Do you think that Roth failed to rid himself of appeals to Marcionite tendency in his reconstruction? If so, can you give an example or two?
Many layers to the problem.

1. Against Marcion opens with "this is a thrice copied text by multiple authors." Does Roth address the hearsay nature of the text thrice removed from a core who knows WTF it was text? NO.

2. Does Roth go beyond what Irenaeus tells people is the situation with Marcion? Absolutely not. So he lives or dies by the veracity of Irenaeus.

3. Are there enough "good nuggets" in the sources to reconstruct Marcion's gospel? No. Should have been a "here's what is said about various passages."

4. Last but not least. Is the author of the third revision distorting an original text which argued from Luke or the gospel of the original author (which he claimed Marcion falsified) against Marcion? Yes. Does Roth say this or address this? No.

So in my estimation Roth exhibited all the skill and dedication to publish his thesis but so what? He successfully exhibited virtue in the academic field and that's all.
Okay, but do you think that Roth failed to rid himself of appeals to Marcionite tendency in his reconstruction?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Justin Martyr, the Gospel of Luke, and Marcion.

Post by Secret Alias »

All scholars have this problem. Sexify or not to sexify. It's not as sexy to say here's what the evidence is. Maybe. I dont think academic papers should be published on Marcion.
Post Reply