Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

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einniv
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Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by einniv »

I wrote a blog entry on Richard Carrier's claim in OHJ that the Greek edition of Life of Adam and Eve has Adam buried in heaven. It really just consists of me making a few comments interspersed with an online translation of the relevant sections. I don't see how Carrier's claim can be maintained. It seems to me a plain reading shows there to be two paradises in view, an earthly one and a heavenly one. While Adam's spirit is taken to the heavenly, his body is buried on earth. I'd be interested to hear some feedback, as to me the conclusion seems quite obvious, and is in fact what other scholars (other than Carrier I mean, I'm a layman) have concluded.

An online translation of Life and Adam and Eve is available here: http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/anderson/ ... a.gre.html. I used the translation in Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Vol 2 (1985) for my initial reading.

That there are two versions of paradise in view should be obvious from the entire story line of Chapter 9-13. Adam is in pain and sends Eve and Seth off to get oil from paradise. Surely he is not telling them to float up to heaven.

9.3 But Adam said to Eve, "Arise and go with my son Seth near to paradise, and put earth upon your heads and weep and pray God
9.4 to have mercy upon me and send his angel to paradise, and give me of the tree out of which the oil flows, and bring it me, and I shall anoint myself and shall have rest from my illness.

10.1 Then Seth and Eve went to area of paradise. And while they were going, Eve saw her son, and a wild beast assailing him,

So there is an earthly paradise it seems. If Adam was created in a heavenly paradise and then ejected from there why would there even be an earthly paradise? And, if there were, how would Adam even know of it and what was in it (an oil)? He would have never been there.

Later, after God has Michael take Adam's soul to the third heaven (Chapter 37), a new story begins that deals with Adam's body. God and the angels come to earth, and take Adam's body to (the earthly) paradise where it says.

38.4 And they came to paradise and all the leaves of paradise were stirred so that all men begotten of Adam slept from the fragrance save Seth alone, because he was born according to the appointment of God.

The offspring of Adam are on earth. There is no reason for them to all fall asleep if this is happening in heaven. Indeed, God sends Michael away to the third heaven merely to fetch linens and you don't send someone to a place where they already are.

40.1 Then God said to the archangel Michael: "Go away to Paradise in the third heaven, and carry away three fine linen clothes." [Pseudepigrapha has "and bring me three cloths" where "carry away three fine linen clothes" is here]

The clincher though is the digression in 40:3-5 about Abel being buried.

40.3 When they finished preparing Adam, God said they should bear the body of Abel also. And they brought more linen and prepared him for burial.
40.4 For he was unburied since the day when Cain his brother slew him; for Cain took great pains to conceal (him) but could not, for the body sprang up from the earth and a voice went out of the earth saying:
40.5 "No other body can be covered until --with respect to the first creature who was taken from me -- the earth from which he was taken is returned to me." And the angels took at that moment and put him upon a rock until Adam, his father, was buried.

Cain and Abel were never in paradise, wherever its location. He isn't trying to hide him (bury him) in the third heaven. That all took place on earth, and here that earth is said to have rejected the body and then said quite clearly that Adam was made from it, not any soil in the third heaven, and that Adam will be buried in the same soil from which he was made.

Just in case I have misunderstood something I want to excerpt this same passage from Pseudepigrapha Vol 2, and give the footnotes.

For the evil Cain took much care to hide (Abel's body), but could not (e), for the earth did not receive the body, saying,
"I shall not receive another (f) body until the mound of earth which was taken from me and formed shall come to me."

Footnote (e) says: MS D adds "for the body sprang up from the earth and there was a voice from the earth saying ..."

I am taking this to mean there is simply a variant reading and not that the entire thing is missing from all but MS D. It is worded different from the main translation.

Footnote (f) says: Most MSS have hetairon, "companion"; the original probably had, as with D, heteron, translated here. Abel could not be buried before Adam.

This seems to confirm my understanding of the previous footnote. Most manuscripts have hetairon (and thus the earth speaking is in those manuscripts).

My blog entry is here: http://naturalreason.revolvingplanet.ne ... -in-heaven but it doesn't add too much beyond what I've said above.

BTW, how does one turn on the BBCodes here?
The Crow
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Re: Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by The Crow »

Should be on by default. If not go to your control panel, click on Board Preferences, then click on edit posting defaults. Also see this it may help:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=260
Bernard Muller
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Re: Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by Bernard Muller »

I have two blog posts on the matter, with the same conclusion:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p17.htm
and
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p18.htm

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
einniv
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Re: Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by einniv »

Bernard,

Though I agree with the conclusion about Adam's body, I differ with some of your analysis. Chapters 37 and 38 aren't clashing with each other, which you propose an interpolation to explain. They are two different stories. Adam's soul did indeed go to the third heaven. It's just that after all that they then dealt with his body.

When Eve & Seth make their trip to outside of the earthly paradise, they are refused the oil by Michael. Michael says

13.6 But do go back to your father since the term of his life is filled in three days, and when his soul goes forth you will see its awesome ascent.

So they are to go watch his soul ascend to the heavens.

Later, 33:2 - 37:6 Are all a vision Eve & Seth see in the sky, and so Adam's soul really does go to the third heaven.

32.4 "Rise up, Eve, from your penitence, for behold, Adam your husband has gone out of his body. Rise up and behold his spirit borne aloft to meet his Maker."

33.1 And Eve rose up and put her hand on the face (of Adam), and the angel said to her, "Lift up your hand from that which is of the earth."
33.2 And she gazed steadfastly into heaven, and beheld a chariot of light...
...
34.2 "Rise up, Seth, from the body of your father Adam, and come to me, and see a spectacle which no man's eye has yet beheld...
...
35.2 (And) she said to him [Seth]: "Look up and see with your eyes the seven heavens opened, and see how the body of your father lies on its face...

The angels plead on Adam's behalf (in the heavens) and God decides to take pity on him.

37.2 "Blessed (be) the glory of the Lord from the works of His making, for He has pitied Adam, the creature of His hands."

Adam is carried off to be washed in the Acherusian lake and taken before God, who then has Michael take him to the third heaven.
37.4 And he stayed there three hours, lying down, and thereafter the Father of all, sitting on his holy throne [not on earth obviously] stretched out his hand, and took Adam and handed him over to the archangel Michael saying:
37.5 "Lift him up into paradise unto the third Heaven, and leave him there until that fearful day of my reckoning...

Then Chapter 38 deals with Adam's body. That is when God comes to earth and takes Adam to the earthly paradise, and all of his offspring but Seth fall asleep (as I mentioned in the OP). There is no contradiction, there are just two stories, one for the soul, one for the body.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by Bernard Muller »

Interesting & challenging!
"and when his soul goes forth you will see its awesome ascent."
So, the soul of Adam goes up after death.
Later, 33:2 - 37:6 Are all a vision Eve & Seth see in the sky, and so Adam's soul really does go to the third heaven.
Eve sees the chariot first in the sky, but that does not mean it was in third heaven or it did not land on earth. Actually, 33 & 34 implies God has come to earth.
32.4 "Rise up, Eve, from your penitence, for behold, Adam your husband has gone out of his body. Rise up and behold his spirit borne aloft to meet his Maker."
Yes Adam's soul went up to 7th heaven after death.
33.1 And Eve rose up and put her hand on the face (of Adam), and the angel said to her, "Lift up your hand from that which is of the earth."
33.2 And she gazed steadfastly into heaven, and beheld a chariot of light...
It is in this chariot that God descends to earth.
34.2 "Rise up, Seth, from the body of your father Adam, and come to me, and see a spectacle which no man's eye has yet beheld...
The body of Adam is still on earth.
35.2 (And) she said to him [Seth]: "Look up and see with your eyes the seven heavens opened, and see how the body of your father lies on its face...
The author did not say the body of Adam was in 7th heaven. The seven heavens are opened so Eve & Seth can see the angels praying.
Adam is carried off to be washed in the Acherusian lake
That in 37.3. That lake was thought to be on earth. And God is present during the washing. He has to be on earth then.
and taken before God, who then has Michael take him to the third heaven.
That's the contentious part.
37.4 And he stayed there three hours, lying down, and thereafter the Father of all, sitting on his holy throne [not on earth obviously] stretched out his hand,
God is stretching out his hand and takes Adam's body before Michael is instructed to bring Adam UP to third heaven. And the throne of God can go anywhere God goes. In 38 & 40, God is still on earth (from 33 to 42). And Adam's body is also on earth, not in third heaven.

Essentially the body of Adam always stays on earth (despite the interpolation of Michael inexplicably bringing Adam's body to third heaven (and never said to be brought back to earth), but the soul of Adam goes to 7th heaven. That's my understanding.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
einniv
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Re: Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by einniv »

We agree that Adam's body never left the earth. It was moved to the earthly paradise to be buried, but not to the heavens. It was the soul that was taken to the third heaven. The text never says his body was taken to the third heaven so I'm not sure where you got that idea. The vision is of his spirit. The praying is for his spirit.

Chapter 34 doesn't imply God came to earth. It is about Eve seeing two beings (who we will learn are the sun and the moon) standing before God. Are you saying the sun and moon came to earth too?

God is not "still" on earth in 38 & 40. It specifically says God assembled the angels and came to where Adam was, not that they were already there.

Anyway maybe I need to be more clear so I'll try again.

33.1 : Eve told to let go of Adam's body and look up. (I think this is the first heaven and we'll see why later)

33:2-34:1 She watches stuff happening, including the chariot, angels and the praying of the angels. Let's not say where just yet because we'll find out in a second.

34:2-35:2 She tells Seth to get up from the body and look into the opened heavens! Ah, so that is where she was seeing what was unfolding! Why else would she tell him to look there? (And also she tells him he will see Adam there)

I don't think there is any question here. This being God on earth makes no sense of where Eve tells Seth to look. It makes no sense of why the sun and moon are there. And it makes no sense of why later Eve will fall asleep with everyone else when God comes to earth.

Now we get to God's mercy and Adam being washed in the Lake (a part of Greek myth) and then God has him taken (up) to the third heaven, because the previous visions were in the first heaven (or firmament).

In Chapter 38 God will of course come to earth but the previous bits were all in heaven.

Anyway, that's what I think. I don't think what you said makes much sense of the text. It requires interpolations, and a sudden interest in exact named geographic locations on earth (the lake). We do agree however that the Garden of Eden was on earth and Adam was buried there and not in the third heaven. So I think I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the talk Bernard.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by Bernard Muller »

It was the soul that was taken to the third heaven.
However the translation of your choosing has:
37.4 And he stayed there three hours, lying down, and thereafter the Father of all, sitting on his holy throne stretched out his hand, and took Adam and handed him over to the archangel Michael saying:
37.5 "Lift him up into paradise unto the third Heaven, and leave him there until that fearful day of my reckoning, which I will make in the world."

If God was in 7th heaven with Adam's soul, why would Adam's soul be lift up to 3rd heaven? He should be carried downward.
The text never says his body was taken to the third heaven so I'm not sure where you got that idea.
But, according to the following verse, the body has already been taken to third heaven:
40.1 Then God said to the archangel Michael: "Go away to Paradise in the third heaven, and carry away three fine linen clothes."
40.2 And God said to Michael and to Gabriel and Uriel: "Spread out the clothes and cover the body of Adam."
And they bore the sweet olive oil and poured it upon him. And the three great angels prepared him for burial.

And how could olive oil be poured on a soul?
And why would Michael bring clothes for Adam's body to third heaven if that body was on earth?
Anyway what is in third heaven is not Adam's soul but his body.
Chapter 34 doesn't imply God came to earth. It is about Eve seeing two beings (who we will learn are the sun and the moon) standing before God. Are you saying the sun and moon came to earth too?
Yes, the sun and the moon are implied coming to earth as darkened bodies. Of course, in these days , many (but not all) thought these celestial objects were small and close to earth.
36.3 And Seth answered her, "The light has not left them, but they cannot shine before the Light of all things, the Father of Light; and on this account their light has been hidden."
The sun and the moon are darkened because they are close to God on earth.

33.4 And I beheld golden censers and three bowls, and behold all the angels with (AFTER?) censers and frankincense came in haste to the incense-offering and blew upon it and the smoke of the incense veiled the firmament.
33.5 And the angels fell down to God,

Notice, the smoke (going up) veils the firmament. So these angels and God have to be under the firmament.
And what the fabulously glorious chariot would carry if not God himself?
God is not "still" on earth in 38 & 40. It specifically says God assembled the angels and came to where Adam was, not that they were already there.
But he is in the following verse:
37.3 But when the angels had said these words, behold, there came one of the seraphim with six wings and snatched up Adam and carried him off to the Acherusian lake, and washed him thrice, and led him before God.
37.4 And he stayed there three hours, lying down
,
The lake Acherusa was thought to be on earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acherusia

And God uses the earthly winds to go from the lake to where is the body of Adam (on earth, in Paradise).
38.3 And behold, the Lord of Hosts entered and four winds drew Him and cherubim mounted on the winds and the angels from heaven escorting Him and they came on the earth, where was the body of Adam.
38.4 And they came to paradise and all the leaves of paradise were stirred so that all men begotten of Adam slept from the fragrance save Seth alone, because he was born according to the appointment of God.
39.1 And God came to the body of Adam ...


I am now certain the two occurrences of "third heaven" had to be interpolated by a Christian, to have Paradise located in third heaven, as in Paul's 2nd epistle to the Corinthians. That should not be surprising, in view that the Georgian version has Christian elements in it, such as:
[42]13.3 This is not to be right now but in the future times, when five thousand years will be completed. Then, at the five and a half thousandth year, the beloved son of God, Christ, will come upon the earth to r(esurrect) Adam's body from his fall, because of the transgression of the commands.
[42]13.4 He will come and he will be baptized in the river Jordan. And as soon as he will have come forth from of the water with the (anointing) of oil, he will anoint him, him
[42]13.5 and all his descendants, so that they will rise at the time of the resurrection. The Lord said, 'I will admit them into paradise and I will anoint them with that unction.'


Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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Jayson
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Re: Adam wasn't buried in the third heaven.

Post by Jayson »

Perhaps I am missing something, but 7 heavens appears in 35.2 as a reference to how much of the heavens was involved in pleading to their god for the ascent of Adam.
I'm not seeing where we are to derive the 7th heaven as a contradictory local against the 3rd heaven where Adam is placed.

I see the entirety of the heavens, from the moon and sun to the full 7 heavens, unified in pleading for Adam, but I'm not seeing where the 7th heaven is isolated in the singular as a delivered location.

Am I missing something?
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