Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
theomise
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by theomise »

Hi Jay,

Appreciate the additional historical details and analysis - great stuff! I see our minds are going in the same direction here.

Of course, the hypothesis that EM murdered Fard is much more speculative... yet fun to think about. :mrgreen:
"Forty years after Master Fard Muhammad's disappearance without a trace, Warith Deen even claimed that he spoke regularly to Fard, but not in a "spooky way" -- he just picked up a phone and called the man."

http://www.vice.com/read/remembering-ma ... d-muhammad
(Warith Deen being EM's son.)

Given that even the FBI couldn't track him after 1934 (and tapped the phonelines of key NoI players for quite a while), that does sound a bit suspicious.

Theo
theomise
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by theomise »

neilgodfrey wrote:Does not a case study like this one about Fard indicate that such a narrative is not the sort of event that produces a steadily growing and expanding religious movement?
How so?

Specifically, comparing Nation of Islam circa AD 2014 to Christianity circa AD 114...

1) Can we empirically establish a quantitative difference in growth rate?
2) To the extent that NoI growth has been limited, to what extent is that limitation attributable to the fact that in its current form it confines itself to black separatists in an African American context... versus, the fact of having a particular type of origin story?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by neilgodfrey »

theomise wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:Does not a case study like this one about Fard indicate that such a narrative is not the sort of event that produces a steadily growing and expanding religious movement?
How so?

Specifically, comparing Nation of Islam circa AD 2014 to Christianity circa AD 114...

1) Can we empirically establish a quantitative difference in growth rate?
2) To the extent that NoI growth has been limited, to what extent is that limitation attributable to the fact that in its current form it confines itself to black separatists in an African American context... versus, the fact of having a particular type of origin story?
There are many "modern" cases where persons have been considered god or messiahs in their lifetimes/after death but I don't know of any that produce the kinds of evidence we have for early Christianity. Those cases I am aware of that produce some sort of followup movement are actually branch movements of an already established religion. The religion that is expanding in Fard's wake is a form of Islam. Allah is the centre of its worship, not Fard. It's possible, I imagine, to become a member of NoI and continue in it with little more than passing thought given to Fard. In the statement of beliefs on the NoI website Fard only gets a single mention in passing. I can be corrected if I'm wrong but NoI looks to me like first and foremost a form of Islamic movement just as Mormonism was a form of Christianity. In the latter Jesus Christ far outshines Joseph Smith as their centre of worship just as Allah is the centre of worship in NoI.

The growth is a form of Christian or Islamic revival with the historical names being little more than triggers for that larger faith. No?
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theomise
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by theomise »

neilgodfrey wrote:
theomise wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:Does not a case study like this one about Fard indicate that such a narrative is not the sort of event that produces a steadily growing and expanding religious movement?
How so?

Specifically, comparing Nation of Islam circa AD 2014 to Christianity circa AD 114...

1) Can we empirically establish a quantitative difference in growth rate?
2) To the extent that NoI growth has been limited, to what extent is that limitation attributable to the fact that in its current form it confines itself to black separatists in an African American context... versus, the fact of having a particular type of origin story?
There are many "modern" cases where persons have been considered god or messiahs in their lifetimes/after death but I don't know of any that produce the kinds of evidence we have for early Christianity. Those cases I am aware of that produce some sort of followup movement are actually branch movements of an already established religion. The religion that is expanding in Fard's wake is a form of Islam. Allah is the centre of its worship, not Fard. It's possible, I imagine, to become a member of NoI and continue in it with little more than passing thought given to Fard. In the statement of beliefs on the NoI website Fard only gets a single mention in passing. I can be corrected if I'm wrong but NoI looks to me like first and foremost a form of Islamic movement just as Mormonism was a form of Christianity. In the latter Jesus Christ far outshines Joseph Smith as their centre of worship just as Allah is the centre of worship in NoI.

The growth is a form of Christian or Islamic revival with the historical names being little more than triggers for that larger faith. No?
Hi Neil, thanks for your reply.
The religion that is expanding in Fard's wake is a form of Islam. Allah is the centre of its worship, not Fard.
But is it any more a 'form of Islam' than Christianity was a 'form of Judaism' circa 114AD?

Remember: Fard and Allah had been equated from the start, just as Jesus and "Κυριος".

Whereas, in the Mormonism case, Joseph Smith was never identified with Jesus.

Again, I do lean toward Jesus mythicism (on Doherty-Carrier grounds), but it's a case of "if I had to bet" rather than "I'll bet you right now" (and of course the standard historicism I regard as indisputably bollocks).

That still leaves a decent chunk of probability for "some weird convoluted historical shit happened that will likely never be proved or disproved".

Cheers,
Theo
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by neilgodfrey »

theomise wrote: But is it any more a 'form of Islam' than Christianity was a 'form of Judaism' circa 114AD?
This is where the comparison begins to break down. I think Judaism in the second temple era and beyond (into the mid/late second century even) was not a "monolithic" religion as Judaism clearly was from the fourth century on and as Christianity and Islam are.

By our standards of what constitutes a separate religion then certainly Christianity with its worship of Christ from its very earliest decades as the creator and sustainer of the cosmos and personal mediator and saviour of all who believe and a hypostasis or whatever of God was very much a separate religion. The Gospel of John effectively makes this clear, I think.

That's not the sort of religion (with respect to its founder or in this case trigger Fard) that we find in the NoI. The comparison would be, I think, if Christianity virtually reduced Jesus to a historical footnote and gave all focus on conversion to Yahweh.)

Yes Fard was inhabited or such by Allah, but this sounds to me pretty much like a parallel to adoptionist christology. Yes, Jesus could say "I Am" in that case. But Fard did not follow in the wake of Jesus as the focus of worship after that moment.

I don't think this is a case of something I have always opposed elsewhere -- trying to discount parallels by focusing on differences. In this case I think the difference (just one) is fundamental to the point of the analogy.

I am not denying parallels in the narratives, by the way. I think they are real. But I have tended to think that the modern or recent historical case-studies actually support the notion that the rationalised narrative of Jesus really does not do the job of explaining Christianity.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by neilgodfrey »

I also asked earlier what we would expect in the evidence from the Fard scenario and to compare it with the evidence we have for Christianity. I know many will disagree with this point but as I see it the difference is quite real and significant. With Fard we have clearly biographical or historical details of the person placed on public notice. They may be false or mythologized but they are evidently attempts to present a historical reality or what we should believe to be historical reality. Contrast Jesus: despite the historical setting everything about Jesus in the earliest evidence is theological and literary. But I know that point opens a can of worms for many who don't accept it.
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theomise
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by theomise »

neilgodfrey wrote:
theomise wrote: But is it any more a 'form of Islam' than Christianity was a 'form of Judaism' circa 114AD?
1) This is where the comparison begins to break down. I think Judaism in the second temple era and beyond (into the mid/late second century even) was not a "monolithic" religion as Judaism clearly was from the fourth century on and as Christianity and Islam are.

2) By our standards of what constitutes a separate religion then certainly Christianity with its worship of Christ from its very earliest decades as the creator and sustainer of the cosmos and personal mediator and saviour of all who believe and a hypostasis or whatever of God was very much a separate religion. The Gospel of John effectively makes this clear, I think.

3) That's not the sort of religion (with respect to its founder or in this case trigger Fard) that we find in the NoI. The comparison would be, I think, if Christianity virtually reduced Jesus to a historical footnote and gave all focus on conversion to Yahweh.)

4) Yes Fard was inhabited or such by Allah, but this sounds to me pretty much like a parallel to adoptionist christology. Yes, Jesus could say "I Am" in that case. But Fard did not follow in the wake of Jesus as the focus of worship after that moment.

5) I don't think this is a case of something I have always opposed elsewhere -- trying to discount parallels by focusing on differences. In this case I think the difference (just one) is fundamental to the point of the analogy.

6) I am not denying parallels in the narratives, by the way. I think they are real. But I have tended to think that the modern or recent historical case-studies actually support the notion that the rationalised narrative of Jesus really does not do the job of explaining Christianity.
[Note: I numbered your points above, so as to avoid doubly, triply, etc nested comments]

1) Granted. However, we are talking about a syncretic and discontinuous "take" on Islam, formulated to address the needs of African Americans in depression-era Detroit. It's not a Sunni/Shia type of organic branching.

2) "from its very earliest decades" meaning what date range, specifically? The bulk of the Gospel of John may not have been written until well into the second century.

3) The conflation between "Jesus" and "Yahweh" seems to have been an early Christian theme, no? Fard and Allah would be parallel.

4) Really? I would argue that he did.

5) OK. I'm just waiting for a knockout punch vis-a-vis ruling out a Fard-like scenario.

6) I don't disagree. I'm just open to a scenario where by some fluke a con-man gets deified, and is ultimately wedded by certain followers to a pre-existing celestial concept that's been floating around a while.
theomise
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by theomise »

neilgodfrey wrote:7) With Fard we have clearly biographical or historical details of the person placed on public notice.

8) They may be false or mythologized but they are evidently attempts to present a historical reality or what we should believe to be historical reality.

9)Contrast Jesus: despite the historical setting everything about Jesus in the earliest evidence is theological and literary. But I know that point opens a can of worms for many who don't accept it.
7) Are you referring to the FBI's (presumably accurate) biographical facts, or the later NoI legends?

8) The later NoI legends about Fard are on a par with the Gospel legends, according to the possibility I'm entertaining. That is, there is an "ugly-true-history ==> mythic deification ==> prettified-faux-history" cycle, in the scenario being proposed.

9) I agree. Literarily, High Christology comes first. Revisionist historicizing second. Same seems to be the case for NoI.
PhilosopherJay
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi All,

The information comes from a book called Origins of the Nation of Islam by Sargeant Sam Smith. The excerpt with the details about the ritual murder and subsequent arrest can be found here - http://awcf.org/files/SamSmith/Fard_partVdoc.pdf

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Solo
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Re: Historicity reconsidered: Jesus vs W.D. Fard

Post by Solo »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi All,

The information comes from a book called Origins of the Nation of Islam by Sargeant Sam Smith. The excerpt with the details about the ritual murder and subsequent arrest can be found here - http://awcf.org/files/SamSmith/Fard_partVdoc.pdf

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Thanks, Jay.

Jiri
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