Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 relates)

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steve43
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by steve43 »

Stephan Huller wrote:I loved closed minded people. One thing you can say with absolute certainty - bad lovers. Not that making love is the end all and be all. But you have to deal with new material each time you take off your clothes or else ...
LOL

An ad hominem attack- not unexpected but one of the oddest I've read.

I should respond with something like "That's not what your wife told me in bed last night." but I won't.

That's juvenile.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by neilgodfrey »

steve43 wrote: An ad hominem attack-
And this from someone who has just dismissed logic and reason because it comes from someone he gratuitously accuses of being on some vendetta against Christianity!
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Stephan Huller
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by Stephan Huller »

And FWIW I didn't mean what I said as an 'attack.' It was a simple way of expressing the basic idea that imagination is essential to artistry. As most people live rather ordinary lives devoid of any need for creativity or artistry I turned my attention to the only 'interpretative' activity which interests most people.

'Thinking outside of the box' is important to most sports where a coach isn't able to call a time out (= American sports). In soccer for instance there is a great deal of artistry which emerges from inspiration. I didn't think you played soccer so I picked the example you gave.

The bottom line is that people don't often realize how important it is to 'think differently' but it is very important whether or not their own intellectual rigidity will allow them to admit it.
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spin
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by spin »

This Tyson book does give the sort of scholarly approach I was looking for—whether one buys into his Marcion position or not—, but does anyone have access to the footnotes for chapter 4? Before I can deal with the scholarly tradition I do need to see more of it.
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spin
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

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[..Useless response to a snide witlessism omitted..]
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DCHindley
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by DCHindley »

spin wrote:Long ago, when I was reading on Luke, I noted that a number of scholars were of the view that the birth narrative was additive after the gospel was written. Sadly I can find a good references to that view. I have seen the idea touted by Raymond Brown in Birth of the Messiah, but he doesn't footnote it. I also know that Ehrman supports the view as he has blogged on it, but still I can't find any literature that I feel I could cite that discusses the notion that Luke originally started at 3:1.

Do you know any scholarly references to the idea that the birth narrative in Luke was a later attachment to the front of the gospel? Ta.
The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon / by Jason David BeDuhn (2013, pp 84-85)
B. The Schwegler Hypothesis

At the opposite end of the spectrum of opinion from the Patristic Hypothesis stands the second theory about the relationship between the Evangelion and canonical Luke, namely, the Schwegler Hypothesis, according to which Luke derives from the Evangelion as a post-Marcion editorial reaction.

This is the position taken in the twentieth century by Paul-Louis Couchoud62 and John Townsend,63 and in the current century by Matthias Klinghardt.64

In addition to pointing out weaknesses in the Patristic Hypothesis, all three build their positive case on isolated signs of secondary redaction in Luke. These signs include:
(1) the greater length of Luke, in the context of the general tendency of ancient redactors to expand earlier texts,
(2) chapters 1-2 of Luke, which explicitly copy the vocabulary and [085] style of the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) in contrast to anything found in the rest of the gospel,65
(3) other inconsistencies between these chapters and the rest of the gospel, including the depictions and importance of Mary and John the Baptist,
(4) indications of narrative disruption in chapter 4 of Luke compared to the Evangelion, including the notorious anachronism of Jesus referring to deeds he had done in Capharnaum at a point in the narrative before he has gone to Capharnaum,66 and
(5) evidence in Luke but not in the Evangelion suggesting a relatively late place in the development of gospel literature.67

62. "Is Marcion's Gospel One of the Synoptics?"
63. "The Date of Luke-Acts."
64. "Markion vs. Lukas."
65. On this subject, see Minear, "Luke's Use of the Birth Stories." While arguing for the unity of these chapters with the rest of Luke-Acts, Minear summarizes a great deal of the evidence that casts doubt on the likelihood of such unity; see especially the preponderance of "characteristic" Lukan style and vocabulary in chapters 1-2 rather than distributed evenly through Luke (114-16), and the contrasting attitudes towards Mary in the early and later parts of the gospel (128). Alfred Loisy, "Marcion's Gospel: A Reply," while highly critical of Couchoud's overall argument, acknowledges the validity of his observations regarding chapters 1-2 of Luke, and accepts the possibility of a proto-Luke lacking the birth and infancy stories; he considers Marcion's removal of them from an already expanded canonical Luke to be a lucky guess of amateur textual criticism on his part (381). Bruce, "Some Thoughts on the Beginning of the New Testament Canon," 44, similarly embraces an earlier form of Luke lacking the first two chapters, while cautioning against a simple identification of Marcion's Evangelion with this possible proto-Luke Vorlage.
66. "According to Marcion, Jesus began his ministry at Capernaum; according to Luke, at Nazareth; but by a curious oversight, Luke, who had hitherto made no mention of Capernaum, describes how Jesus imagines the men of Nazareth saying to Him, 'Whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country' (iv.28). Now, up till then, nothing had happened in Capernaum. This negligence on the part of Luke clearly indicates that the order, Capernaum before Nazareth, as found in Marcion, is the original one" (Couchoud, "Is Marcion's Gospel One of the Synoptics?" 269). By the Schwegler Hypothesis, an anti-Marcionite motive to highlight Nazareth as Jesus' human, Jewish hometown prompted the rearrangement, inadvertently creating the awkward aporia. Loisy sought to account for the anomaly in Luke by the displacement of the Nazareth narrative to a much earlier place in the narrative than where it is found in Luke's source, Mark (Loisy, "Marcion's Gospel: A Reply," 381), failing to notice that the telltale reference to things "done in Capernaum" is not found in Mark, but is distinct to the Lukan version of the episode. His other suggested explanations (381-82) are even less persuasive.
67. Including such things as the Prologue's reference to many (polloi) previous gospel writers (with its critical tone, perhaps intended to [352] include the Evangelion itself), and signs of dependence on Matthew and perhaps John. While a number of modern scholars take the latter evidence as relevant for the initial composition of Luke, proponents of the Schwegler Hypothesis suggest that it was introduced at a secondary stage of redaction, since it is largely absent from the Evangelion. Couchoud, for instance, notes that two distinct kinds of literary relationship to Matthew can be identified in Luke. The first sort consists of loose parallelism with considerable grammatical independence, which Couchoud and Klinghardt ("The Marcionite Gospel and the Synoptic Problem") attribute to Matthew's dependence on the Evangelion (cf. West Jr., "A Primitive Version of Luke," and Sturdy, Redrawing the Boundaries, 42-48), but which could be explained also, and probably better, by common dependence on Q in accord with the two-source hypothesis. The second sort of material showing a literary relationship of Luke to Matthew consists of nearly verbatim duplication, which Couchoud attributes to direct use of Matthew by the later redactor who developed the Evangelion into Luke (273ff.). François Bovon, in his commentary on Luke, has identified a considerable number of what he regards as secondary harmonizations of the text to Matthew.

Couchoud, Paul-Louis. The Creation of Christ: An Outline of the Beginnings of Christianity. Vol. 2. Trans. C. Bradlaugh Bonner. London: Watts & Co., 1939 [Le mystère de Jésus. Paris: Rieder, 1924].

Townsend, John. "The Date of Luke-Acts." Pp. 47-62 in Charles H. Talbert, Luke-Acts: New Perspectives from the Society of Biblical Literature Seminar. New York: Crossroad, 1984.

Klinghardt, Matthias. "The Marcionite Gospel and the Synoptic Problem: A New Suggestion." Novum Testamentum 50 (2008) 1-27. "Markion vs. Lukas: Plädoyer für die Wiederaufnahme eines alten Falles." NTS (52 (2006) 484-513.

Minear, Paul S. "Luke's Use of the Birth Stories." Pp. 111-30 in Studies in Luke-Acts: Essays presented in honor of Paul Schubert. Ed. Keck & Martyn. London: SPCK, 1968.
DCH
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by ghost »

DCHindley wrote:
Paul-Louis Couchoud62
I know this is only tangentially related, but that author also postulated the gospel of Mark was written in Latin:

http://www.radikalkritik.de/Couch_latMarc_trnsl.htm
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DCHindley
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by DCHindley »

ghost wrote:
DCHindley wrote:
Paul-Louis Couchoud62
I know this is only tangentially related, but that author also postulated the gospel of Mark was written in Latin:

http://www.radikalkritik.de/Couch_latMarc_trnsl.htm
I'm not necessarily endorsing any of these folks.

What I did recall was that BeDuhn discussed the possibility that the genealogy in the Gospel of Luke was an addition to an early version of a proto-Luke that served as the basis of both the canonical edition of the Gospel of Luke and Marcion's Evangelion.

Since I did not have access to the footnotes to the other work that spin was interested in, this was the next best thing, and hopefully the scholarship referenced overlaps a fair bit.

DCH (made a correction to grammar)
Last edited by DCHindley on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JoeWallack
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by JoeWallack »

spin wrote:Long ago, when I was reading on Luke, I noted that a number of scholars were of the view that the birth narrative was additive after the gospel was written. Sadly I can find a good references to that view. I have seen the idea touted by Raymond Brown in Birth of the Messiah, but he doesn't footnote it. I also know that Ehrman supports the view as he has blogged on it, but still I can't find any literature that I feel I could cite that discusses the notion that Luke originally started at 3:1.

Do you know any scholarly references to the idea that the birth narrative in Luke was a later attachment to the front of the gospel? Ta.
JW:
Neil Godfree gives a nice summary of the argument here:

Luke’s Infancy Narratives (Luke 1:5-2:52) as an integrated response to Marcionism

I believe the straight-forward scholarly analysis of GLuke as a whole and conclusion that the IN is not original is Conzelmann:

The Theology of St. Luke


Joseph

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Stephan Huller
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Re: Texts on the construction of Luke (esp how 1:1-2:52 rela

Post by Stephan Huller »

FWIW (something a little off topic of course) I always thought it was strange the way Irenaeus brings forward what are supposed to be 'unique things' about each gospel in Book Three. He starts with Matthew and then moves on to Luke which is odd in itself (i.e. it should be Mark). But in that list of 'unique things' in Matthew he includes something which ends up also in Luke. Odd that he would include this:
He preached to them, therefore, the repentance from wickedness, but he did not declare to them another God, besides Him who made the promise to Abraham; he, the forerunner of Christ, of whom Matthew again says, and Luke likewise, "For this is he that was spoken of from the Lord by the prophet, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough into smooth ways; and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."
It just seems to me that originally Irenaeus wrote a revelation based on a threefold gospel (i.e. Matthew, then Mark, then John) and later when Luke was invented he added a section right after Matthew but had to go back and add the 'and Luke also' above. Just a thought (however off topic).
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