evidence for Christianity before the third Roman Jewish conflict

[avi]

The Second century played a key role in the development of ancient Christianity. From Pliny’s perception of the nova superstitio as separated from its Jewish roots to Celsus’ powerful attack on Christianity under Marcus Aurelius and thereafter, this period saw the wide social diffusion of Christianity,....

To use one of my favorite author's favorite terms: "rubbish".

The evidence does not support this conclusion, no matter how many Italian scholars of diverse backgrounds, repeat the same slogans, mindlessly. Hadrian lived the early second century. There is no evidence for the existence of any Christian writings or beliefs, prior to the conclusion of the third Roman Jewish conflict, which resulted in the forced expulsion of all Jews from Jerusalem, and led, in my opinion, to the creation of the gospels, by the Nobel prize winning authors of yesteryear.

Celsus did not write anything, ever, that we possess today, or for the past 1,600 years. Who ELSE, besides Origen, (writing in 248 CE, supposedly, (though, where is that manuscript, today?), has ever commented on this supposed second century composition by Celsus?)

The Nobel prize for literature was awarded today, to a Canadian! (I am very fond of that portion of the great nation that lies just south of my hometown, notwithstanding their economic dependence on growing tobacco there.) So, literature is an important part of the culture of our life today. How long has that been true? 2000 years? 3000 years. Humans are inventive. They like to make up stories. These "scholars", in the quote above, are creative writers. They are writing fiction, nothing more.

[stephan happy huller]

There is no evidence for the existence of any Christian writings or beliefs, prior to the conclusion of the third Roman Jewish conflict (= Constantine)

You know what I think of this stupid claim. You know what every sensible person thinks of this stupid claim. You hold up this nonsense as a banner. But have you ever inquired into the actually evidence for this 'third Roman Jewish conflict' mentioned by Chrysostom? There is none. So why do you accept its existence but not the clear evidence for Christianity in the second and third centuries where there is clear physical evidence for Christianity? You already know what I think.

My opinion has always been that you can't think you are great dancer if no one else thinks you are a good at dancing. No one else but the lunatic fringe thinks that Christianity was invented in the fourth century. Therefore, you know what I and everyone else thinks of those who promote this nonsense.

[avi]

But how did the second century Jewish source of Celsus get it wrong? He wrote a book against Christianity less than a hundred years after the first gospels were published. He cites Matthew at length and had access to good sources.

NOPE.

The Greek author, Celsus, is cited by Origen. There is no extant work by Celsus. NONE. NOTHING. Zero.

Origen cites Matthew at length, and Origen, at least before he mutilated himself, hoping to arrive at nirvanna, by means of castration, had access to good sources.

About Celsus, we know NOTHING. We BELIEVE that he wrote this, that and the other, because that's what Origen wrote. That's akin to reading the Republican party criticism of the Affordable health care act, and believing that its real name is Obamacare.

Did anyone else, besides Origen, comment on Celsus? Anyone that is, before the fourth century?

[avi]

There is no evidence for the existence of any Christian writings or beliefs, prior to the conclusion of the third Roman Jewish conflict (= Constantine)

This is a deliberate misquotation.

Look again.

I wrote nothing about Lord Constantine. I certainly have NEVER equated the terminus of the third Roman Jewish conflict, circa 135 CE, with the governance by the Roman emperor, Constantine, about two centuries later.

Not only did you misquote me, and misunderstand what I have written, you missed the main point of the submission: WHERE'S the evidence to support any kind of christianity, before 135CE.

[MrMacSon]

... There is no evidence for the existence of any Christian writings or beliefs, prior to the conclusion of the third Roman Jewish conflict, which resulted in the forced expulsion of all Jews from Jerusalem ...

The final expulsion? ie. expulsion had been going on for decades, started in previous conflicts ??

Also, many Jews had been committed to slavery, in Judea(h) or in the places they were exiled to, or both ??

[stephan happy huller]

WTF is this all about?

nirvanna, by means of castration, had access to good sources.

Can't you find somewhere else to unload this repetitive nonsense. Please cite an example anywhere of a forgery that was so complex that it took this sort of complexity:

Author A (= Origen) writing a reponse to
Author B (= Celsus) citing the work of
Author C (= a Jew) who makes reference to
Source D (= Jewish tradition, Matthew and a host of others)

This never happens in forgeries. Why go to such lengths? And besides I am tired of arguing with fools that believe in this sort of conspiracy nonsense. You are all mad that the evidence contradicts vanity.

[Roger Pearse]

I think there is cross-purposes here. I think the reference intended here is to the expulsion of ALL Jews from JERUSALEM (not from Judea)? This was Hadrian's novelty (and the building of Aelia).

[Peter Kirby]

The theory of the fourth century construction of Christianity is something like the construction of a few decades worth of analysis of the Cuban missile crisis, without any Cubans or nuclear missiles or cold war.

(The post-135 origin of Christianity, which I now see is Avi's preference, is not nearly as bad but still kinda bad ...)

Your analogy to getting things wrong like the name of a healthcare bill is a lot closer to what most scholars think, not what you think.

[Peter Kirby]

There is no evidence for the existence of any Christian writings or beliefs, prior to the conclusion of the third Roman Jewish conflict,

No, you're wrong. There is Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger, all writing before the Bar Kokhba conflict, which would attest to the existence of Christian beliefs in that era even if all the Christian writers were lost to history.

[stephan happy huller]

do you ever notice how these forums degenerate into a debate over which texts should be discounted for being forgeries? I think this has always been the dividing line in any debate about religion at any time in history. the Samaritans accused the Jews of forgery and vice versa and it never stopped.