Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Evidence Of Intentional Fiction

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Dazed and Confused

Post by JoeWallack » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:23 am

JW:

A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "days":
2250 [e] hēmeras ἡμέρας days
http://biblehub.com/greek/2250.htm

Verse Chiasm Commentary
8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Passion Prediction -
  • 9:2
    And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
Classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene In the classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene the hero's true identity is revealed and his fortunes (so to speak) are reversed. An exact match with GMark. We have matching, extant evidence that this was "Mark's" structural source and no matching, extant evidence that it was something else such as a resurrection narrative.
9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he shall rise again. Passion Prediction -

This Thread has already demonstrated ad nazorean that GMark does contain a literary style of chiastic use of individual words. Thus, this should be a recognized criterion of Textual Criticism, when a candidate improves a chiasm that is evidence of originality.


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

The Perils of Pauline

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:51 am

JW:

A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "days":
2250 [e] hēmeras ἡμέρας days
http://biblehub.com/greek/2250.htm

Verse Chiasm Commentary
8:2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: Passion (suffering) for Jesus' followers Our clever author has a doubling of the "three days" on either side of the pivot and links the suffering of Jesus with the suffering of Jesus' followers.
  • 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Passion Prediction -
    • 9:2
      And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
Classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene In the classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene the hero's true identity is revealed and his fortunes (so to speak) are reversed. An exact match with GMark. We have matching, extant evidence that this was "Mark's" structural source and no matching, extant evidence that it was something else such as a resurrection narrative.
  • 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he shall rise again.
Passion Prediction -
10:34 and they shall mock him, and shall spit upon him, and shall scourge him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again. Passion Prediction We have a Textual Criticism issue here as a candidate for originality is "on" the third day rather than "after" three days. Since "on" here would match the corresponding part of the chiasm in 8:2 that is evidence that "on" is original here.

This Thread has already demonstrated ad nazorean that GMark does contain a literary style of chiastic use of individual words. Thus, this should be a recognized criterion of Textual Criticism, when a candidate improves a chiasm that is evidence of originality.

Bonus material for Solo = What author famously said that followers of Jesus must be passionated with him?


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Daysto's Inferno

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:39 am

JW:

A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "days":
2250 [e] hēmeras ἡμέρας days
http://biblehub.com/greek/2250.htm

Verse Chiasm Commentary
8:1 In those days, when there was again a great multitude, and they had nothing to eat, he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Avoid growing weary The key word [1590 [e] eklythēsontai ἐκλυθήσονται they will faint V-FIP-3P.] Used by Paul (surprise) in Galatians 6:9. Feed yourself with Jesus and watch until the end (contra Peter). No literary reason to use the phrase "in those days" here other than to connect with its (over)use in Chapter 13. As the Brits say, "The cruncher."
  • 8:2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat:
Passion (suffering) for Jesus' followers Our clever author has a doubling of the "three days" on either side of the pivot and links the suffering of Jesus with the suffering of Jesus' followers.
    • 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Passion Prediction -
      • 9:2
        And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
Classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene In the classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene the hero's true identity is revealed and his fortunes (so to speak) are reversed. An exact match with GMark. We have matching, extant evidence that this was "Mark's" structural source and no matching, extant evidence that it was something else such as a resurrection narrative.
    • 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he shall rise again.
Passion Prediction -
  • 10:34 and they shall mock him, and shall spit upon him, and shall scourge him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again.
Passion Prediction We have a Textual Criticism issue here as a candidate for originality is "on" the third day rather than "after" three days. Since "on" here would match the corresponding part of the chiasm in 8:2 that is evidence that "on" is original here.
13:17, 13:19, 13:20, 13:20, 13:24, 13:32 in those days Avoid growing weary I note with interest that the offending phrase is used or at least referred to six times. More evidence of an original composition. For those who need points sharply explained, more contrivance = more originality = more evidence for originality.

This Thread has already demonstrated ad nazorean that GMark does contain a literary style of chiastic use of individual words. Thus, this should be a recognized criterion of Textual Criticism, when a candidate improves a chiasm that is evidence of originality.

I see and hear "Mark" now ironically eternally in Hell and Saying to The Devil, "How could I have made it more obvious that it was not to be taken literally (so to speak)?"

Bonus material for Solo = What author famously said that followers of Jesus must be passionated with him?


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Judah Judah Judah

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:39 am

JW:
A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "Judea":

http://biblehub.com/text/mark/1-5.htm
2449 [e] Ioudaia Ἰουδαία of Judea N-NFS

Verse Commentary
1
5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Start of the pre-Passion
    • 3
      7 And Jesus with his disciples withdrew to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and from Judaea,
Beginning of the Judean Ministry.
    • 10
      1 And he arose from thence and cometh into the borders of Judaea and beyond the Jordan: and multitudes come together unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.
Ending of the Judean Ministry (pre-Jerusalem).
13
14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
End of the pre-Passion

These are the only uses of the offending word. It sure looks like the author has jewdiciously used the word to mark major structures of the narrative.


Joseph

The New Porphyry

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Voice Lessons

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:40 pm

It's My Voice

An exploration of "Mark's" chiastic use of:

Voice

Verse Commentary
1 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight; Prologue. Before The Spirit arrives there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). The Internal evidence suggests 1:1-3 may not be original. Without it the chiasm here balances.
  • 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.
Movement of The Spirit(Arrival)
  • 1:26 And the unclean spirit, tearing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.
Movement of a spirit (Departure). Note that departure of a spirit is always via a "loud voice".
    • 5 5:7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
Identification of The Spirit
    • 9 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.
Identification of The Spirit
  • 15 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Movement of The Spirit (Departure)
15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Epilogue. After The Spirit departs there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). Not having narrative before The Spirit arrives and after it departs is pure Separationist.

There is some duplication of themes here but for the most part "Mark" (author) seems to rePete in contrived places making him either a literary genius or a retard.


Joseph

Book Review of Tareq Baconi's Hamas Contained: The Rise and Pacification of Palestinian Resistance - Preface Only

gmx
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 am

Re: Voice Lessons

Post by gmx » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:48 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:40 pm
It's My Voice

An exploration of "Mark's" chiastic use of:

Voice

Verse Commentary
1 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight; Prologue. Before The Spirit arrives there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). The Internal evidence suggests 1:1-3 may not be original. Without it the chiasm here balances.
  • 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.
Movement of The Spirit(Arrival)
  • 1:26 And the unclean spirit, tearing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.
Movement of a spirit (Departure). Note that departure of a spirit is always via a "loud voice".
    • 5 5:7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
Identification of The Spirit
    • 9 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.
Identification of The Spirit
  • 15 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Movement of The Spirit (Departure)
15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Epilogue. After The Spirit departs there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). Not having narrative before The Spirit arrives and after it departs is pure Separationist.

There is some duplication of themes here but for the most part "Mark" (author) seems to rePete in contrived places making him either a literary genius or a retard.
Is the sort of planning this would require really feasible? By that I mean that "Mark" would have needed a verse-by-verse plan of his entire gospel, or something approximating it. Is that feasible?
I saw a Naked girl ,Slowly emerge in front of me,Greek hairstyle,Very beautiful,She has a beautiful [fine] profile.; She is fine in profile. the view of profile,hard to tell.

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

White Washing Privilege

Post by JoeWallack » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:09 pm

JW:
7:4
and [when they come] from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.)
Interesting Textual Criticism issue here:

https://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php

καὶ χαλκίων καὶ κλινῶν] A D E F G H K W X Θ Π Σ f1 f13 28c 33 157 180 205 565 579 597 700 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1230 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz Lect (l10 l80 l303 l313 l333 l374 l1127 l1761 χαλκίων) ita itaur itb itc itd itf itff2 iti itl itq (itr1) vg syrp syrh copsa(mss) goth arm eth geo slav Diatessarona Diatessaronp Origen ς WH (NA [καὶ κλινῶν]) NRtext CEI Rivtext Nv NM

καὶ χαλκίων] p45vid ‭א B L Δ 28* 440 1053 1342 2200 l48 l292 copsa(ms) copbo NRmg ND Rivmg Dio TILC

κλινῶν] = Bed. https://biblehub.com/greek/2825.htm

Some of the best quality for omission but pretty, pretty good quality for original. So which is the difficult reading? The most common meaning of the offending word is "bed" which includes any type of sleeping furniture/item such as couches. "Couches" fits the verse a little, you generally can use somewhere to sit while eating. This type of extreme, even comical, picture of fanatical ritual washing of everything connected to eating, even your seat, does fit "Mark's" extremely contrived (fictional) writing style. For the more important Transcriptional component of The Difficult Reading Principle it's more likely copyists exorcised than added since Jewish Ritual of washing a couch was seen by those wanting a historical GMark as unhistorical/fictional. So GMatthew/GLuke. And so "couch" likely original. Just like when a random Hamas leader tells a random Israel critic that just because Hamas has always refused to recognize Israel, it was organized to refuse to recognize Israel, it is supported by those who refuse to recognize Israel and its only promise is to refuse to ever recognize Israel, that does not mean that Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, you shouldn't be surprised.
Here, just because the best witnesses support omission, you shouldn't be surprised because as my Award winning Thread:

Cumulative Weight of Early Witness for Difficult Readings

indicates the average high quality Manuscript will usually be on the wrong side of The Difficult Readings.

With "couches" used in a seat context this connects or at least provides some interesting parallel between the supposed Jewish Ritual in Chapter 7 and Chapter 11:
7:4 and [when they come] from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.)[couches]
Verses:
11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and he entered into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and them that bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of them that sold the doves;
16 and he would not suffer that any man should carry a vessel through the temple.
The matching/parallels between the two, both (mis)describing Jewish Ritual, would explain the impossible/improbable/trivial items in both:
  • 1) Baptism before eating (still waiting for someone, anyone who thinks GMark was written close to 70 to explain all these anachronisms).
    2) "Pouring" of cups is likely original (Note that this supports "fist" translation in 7:3).
    3) Ritual washing of couches.
    4) One guy turns over the tables.
    5) One guy turns over the tables without getting killed or even having anyone remember.
    6) One guy prevents vessels from being carried (to prevent Ritual Washing I suppose).
Sadly, the biggest historical irony here is that 7:4 caused even more Christians to die (from not washing hands) than Jews murdered by Christians because the Jews did wash their hands.


Joseph

Published works and statements about the Holocaust

Post Reply