Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Evidence Of Intentional Fiction

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Dazed and Confused

Post by JoeWallack » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:23 am

JW:

A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "days":
2250 [e] hēmeras ἡμέρας days
http://biblehub.com/greek/2250.htm

Verse Chiasm Commentary
8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Passion Prediction -
  • 9:2
    And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
Classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene In the classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene the hero's true identity is revealed and his fortunes (so to speak) are reversed. An exact match with GMark. We have matching, extant evidence that this was "Mark's" structural source and no matching, extant evidence that it was something else such as a resurrection narrative.
9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he shall rise again. Passion Prediction -

This Thread has already demonstrated ad nazorean that GMark does contain a literary style of chiastic use of individual words. Thus, this should be a recognized criterion of Textual Criticism, when a candidate improves a chiasm that is evidence of originality.


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The Perils of Pauline

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:51 am

JW:

A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "days":
2250 [e] hēmeras ἡμέρας days
http://biblehub.com/greek/2250.htm

Verse Chiasm Commentary
8:2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: Passion (suffering) for Jesus' followers Our clever author has a doubling of the "three days" on either side of the pivot and links the suffering of Jesus with the suffering of Jesus' followers.
  • 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Passion Prediction -
    • 9:2
      And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
Classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene In the classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene the hero's true identity is revealed and his fortunes (so to speak) are reversed. An exact match with GMark. We have matching, extant evidence that this was "Mark's" structural source and no matching, extant evidence that it was something else such as a resurrection narrative.
  • 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he shall rise again.
Passion Prediction -
10:34 and they shall mock him, and shall spit upon him, and shall scourge him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again. Passion Prediction We have a Textual Criticism issue here as a candidate for originality is "on" the third day rather than "after" three days. Since "on" here would match the corresponding part of the chiasm in 8:2 that is evidence that "on" is original here.

This Thread has already demonstrated ad nazorean that GMark does contain a literary style of chiastic use of individual words. Thus, this should be a recognized criterion of Textual Criticism, when a candidate improves a chiasm that is evidence of originality.

Bonus material for Solo = What author famously said that followers of Jesus must be passionated with him?


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Daysto's Inferno

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:39 am

JW:

A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "days":
2250 [e] hēmeras ἡμέρας days
http://biblehub.com/greek/2250.htm

Verse Chiasm Commentary
8:1 In those days, when there was again a great multitude, and they had nothing to eat, he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Avoid growing weary The key word [1590 [e] eklythēsontai ἐκλυθήσονται they will faint V-FIP-3P.] Used by Paul (surprise) in Galatians 6:9. Feed yourself with Jesus and watch until the end (contra Peter). No literary reason to use the phrase "in those days" here other than to connect with its (over)use in Chapter 13. As the Brits say, "The cruncher."
  • 8:2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat:
Passion (suffering) for Jesus' followers Our clever author has a doubling of the "three days" on either side of the pivot and links the suffering of Jesus with the suffering of Jesus' followers.
    • 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Passion Prediction -
      • 9:2
        And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
Classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene In the classical Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene the hero's true identity is revealed and his fortunes (so to speak) are reversed. An exact match with GMark. We have matching, extant evidence that this was "Mark's" structural source and no matching, extant evidence that it was something else such as a resurrection narrative.
    • 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he shall rise again.
Passion Prediction -
  • 10:34 and they shall mock him, and shall spit upon him, and shall scourge him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again.
Passion Prediction We have a Textual Criticism issue here as a candidate for originality is "on" the third day rather than "after" three days. Since "on" here would match the corresponding part of the chiasm in 8:2 that is evidence that "on" is original here.
13:17, 13:19, 13:20, 13:20, 13:24, 13:32 in those days Avoid growing weary I note with interest that the offending phrase is used or at least referred to six times. More evidence of an original composition. For those who need points sharply explained, more contrivance = more originality = more evidence for originality.

This Thread has already demonstrated ad nazorean that GMark does contain a literary style of chiastic use of individual words. Thus, this should be a recognized criterion of Textual Criticism, when a candidate improves a chiasm that is evidence of originality.

I see and hear "Mark" now ironically eternally in Hell and Saying to The Devil, "How could I have made it more obvious that it was not to be taken literally (so to speak)?"

Bonus material for Solo = What author famously said that followers of Jesus must be passionated with him?


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Judah Judah Judah

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:39 am

JW:
A look at "Mark's" (author) chiastic use of the word "Judea":

http://biblehub.com/text/mark/1-5.htm
2449 [e] Ioudaia Ἰουδαία of Judea N-NFS

Verse Commentary
1
5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Start of the pre-Passion
    • 3
      7 And Jesus with his disciples withdrew to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and from Judaea,
Beginning of the Judean Ministry.
    • 10
      1 And he arose from thence and cometh into the borders of Judaea and beyond the Jordan: and multitudes come together unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.
Ending of the Judean Ministry (pre-Jerusalem).
13
14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
End of the pre-Passion

These are the only uses of the offending word. It sure looks like the author has jewdiciously used the word to mark major structures of the narrative.


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Voice Lessons

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:40 pm

It's My Voice

An exploration of "Mark's" chiastic use of:

Voice

Verse Commentary
1 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight; Prologue. Before The Spirit arrives there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). The Internal evidence suggests 1:1-3 may not be original. Without it the chiasm here balances.
  • 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.
Movement of The Spirit(Arrival)
  • 1:26 And the unclean spirit, tearing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.
Movement of a spirit (Departure). Note that departure of a spirit is always via a "loud voice".
    • 5 5:7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
Identification of The Spirit
    • 9 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.
Identification of The Spirit
  • 15 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Movement of The Spirit (Departure)
15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Epilogue. After The Spirit departs there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). Not having narrative before The Spirit arrives and after it departs is pure Separationist.

There is some duplication of themes here but for the most part "Mark" (author) seems to rePete in contrived places making him either a literary genius or a retard.


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Re: Voice Lessons

Post by gmx » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:48 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:40 pm
It's My Voice

An exploration of "Mark's" chiastic use of:

Voice

Verse Commentary
1 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight; Prologue. Before The Spirit arrives there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). The Internal evidence suggests 1:1-3 may not be original. Without it the chiasm here balances.
  • 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.
Movement of The Spirit(Arrival)
  • 1:26 And the unclean spirit, tearing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.
Movement of a spirit (Departure). Note that departure of a spirit is always via a "loud voice".
    • 5 5:7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
Identification of The Spirit
    • 9 9:7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.
Identification of The Spirit
  • 15 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Movement of The Spirit (Departure)
15:37 And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Epilogue. After The Spirit departs there is nothing worth writing about (so to speak). Not having narrative before The Spirit arrives and after it departs is pure Separationist.

There is some duplication of themes here but for the most part "Mark" (author) seems to rePete in contrived places making him either a literary genius or a retard.
Is the sort of planning this would require really feasible? By that I mean that "Mark" would have needed a verse-by-verse plan of his entire gospel, or something approximating it. Is that feasible?
I saw a Naked girl ,Slowly emerge in front of me,Greek hairstyle,Very beautiful,She has a beautiful [fine] profile.; She is fine in profile. the view of profile,hard to tell.

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White Washing Privilege

Post by JoeWallack » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:09 pm

JW:
7:4
and [when they come] from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.)
Interesting Textual Criticism issue here:

https://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php

καὶ χαλκίων καὶ κλινῶν] A D E F G H K W X Θ Π Σ f1 f13 28c 33 157 180 205 565 579 597 700 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1230 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz Lect (l10 l80 l303 l313 l333 l374 l1127 l1761 χαλκίων) ita itaur itb itc itd itf itff2 iti itl itq (itr1) vg syrp syrh copsa(mss) goth arm eth geo slav Diatessarona Diatessaronp Origen ς WH (NA [καὶ κλινῶν]) NRtext CEI Rivtext Nv NM

καὶ χαλκίων] p45vid ‭א B L Δ 28* 440 1053 1342 2200 l48 l292 copsa(ms) copbo NRmg ND Rivmg Dio TILC

κλινῶν] = Bed. https://biblehub.com/greek/2825.htm

Some of the best quality for omission but pretty, pretty good quality for original. So which is the difficult reading? The most common meaning of the offending word is "bed" which includes any type of sleeping furniture/item such as couches. "Couches" fits the verse a little, you generally can use somewhere to sit while eating. This type of extreme, even comical, picture of fanatical ritual washing of everything connected to eating, even your seat, does fit "Mark's" extremely contrived (fictional) writing style. For the more important Transcriptional component of The Difficult Reading Principle it's more likely copyists exorcised than added since Jewish Ritual of washing a couch was seen by those wanting a historical GMark as unhistorical/fictional. So GMatthew/GLuke. And so "couch" likely original. Just like when a random Hamas leader tells a random Israel critic that just because Hamas has always refused to recognize Israel, it was organized to refuse to recognize Israel, it is supported by those who refuse to recognize Israel and its only promise is to refuse to ever recognize Israel, that does not mean that Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, you shouldn't be surprised.
Here, just because the best witnesses support omission, you shouldn't be surprised because as my Award winning Thread:

Cumulative Weight of Early Witness for Difficult Readings

indicates the average high quality Manuscript will usually be on the wrong side of The Difficult Readings.

With "couches" used in a seat context this connects or at least provides some interesting parallel between the supposed Jewish Ritual in Chapter 7 and Chapter 11:
7:4 and [when they come] from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.)[couches]
Verses:
11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and he entered into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and them that bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of them that sold the doves;
16 and he would not suffer that any man should carry a vessel through the temple.
The matching/parallels between the two, both (mis)describing Jewish Ritual, would explain the impossible/improbable/trivial items in both:
  • 1) Baptism before eating (still waiting for someone, anyone who thinks GMark was written close to 70 to explain all these anachronisms).
    2) "Pouring" of cups is likely original (Note that this supports "fist" translation in 7:3).
    3) Ritual washing of couches.
    4) One guy turns over the tables.
    5) One guy turns over the tables without getting killed or even having anyone remember.
    6) One guy prevents vessels from being carried (to prevent Ritual Washing I suppose).
Sadly, the biggest historical irony here is that 7:4 caused even more Christians to die (from not washing hands) than Jews murdered by Christians because the Jews did wash their hands.


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A Markan Sandwich 9:14 The Healing of a Boy with a Spirit

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:33 am

I'm A Believer

JW:
"Mark" is famous for sandwiches (mainly Jewbenos). Typically related narrative is interrupted by a seemingly unrelated anecdote story. The anecdote provides the lesson the author wants to teach and this lesson can then be used to understand the author's intended significance/meaning of the surrounding narrative. As a side note this is a relatively good category of evidence for Markan Priority as the subsequent authors tend to dilute the sandwich and in different ways.

Scenario: NRSV
9 As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead could mean. 11 Then they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 12 He said to them, “Elijah is indeed coming first to restore all things. How then is it written about the Son of Man, that he is to go through many sufferings and be treated with contempt? 13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written about him.”
    • 14 When they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd around them, and some scribes arguing with them. 15 When the whole crowd saw him, they were immediately overcome with awe, and they ran forward to greet him. 16 He asked them, “What are you arguing about with them?” 17 Someone from the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought you my son; he has a spirit that makes him unable to speak; 18 and whenever it seizes him, it dashes him down; and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid; and I asked your disciples to cast it out, but they could not do so.” 19 He answered them, “You faithless generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you? Bring him to me.” 20 And they brought the boy[e] to him. When the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy,[f] and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21 Jesus[g] asked the father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 It has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you are able to do anything, have pity on us and help us.” 23 Jesus said to him, “If you are able!—All things can be done for the one who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out,[h] “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 When Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You spirit that keeps this boy from speaking and hearing, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again!” 26 After crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he was able to stand. 28 When he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?” 29 He said to them, “This kind can come out only through prayer.”

30 They went on from there and passed through Galilee. He did not want anyone to know it; 31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is to be betrayed into human hands, and they will kill him, and three days after being killed, he will rise again.” 32 But they did not understand what he was saying and were afraid to ask him.


So, the surrounding narrative has a prediction of a successful Passion supported by what was written about a successful Passion. If the above is a classic (so to speak) Markan Sandwich, then how does the anecdote in the middle provide the lesson/teaching for properly understanding the author's intent of the surrounding narrative?

Bonus hint for Solo = In "Mark's" time, c. 100, the Passion of GMark had certainly been written about, that's a fact Jacob. Just not in The Jewish Bible but in Paul and GMark.


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A Markan Sandwich 9:14 The Healing of a Boy with a Spirit - Parallel

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:52 pm

1408


JW:

Scenario: NRSV

9:14-29 14:32-43 Commentary
14 When they came to the disciples[1], they saw a great crowd[2] around them, and some scribes arguing [3] with them. 15 When the whole crowd saw him, they were immediately overcome with awe, and they ran forward to greet him. 16 He asked them, “What are you arguing about with them?” 17 Someone from the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought you my son; he has a spirit that makes him unable to speak; 18 and whenever it seizes him, it dashes him down;[4] and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid; and I asked your disciples to cast it out, but they could not do so.[6] 19 He answered them, “You faithless generation, how much longer must I be among you? How much longer must I put up with you? Bring him to me.” 20 And they brought the boy[e] to him. When the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy,[f] and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21 Jesus[g] asked the father [5], “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 It has often cast him into the fire and into the water, to destroy him; but if you are able to do anything, have pity on us and help us.” 23 Jesus said to him, “If you are able!—All things can be done for the one who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out,[h] “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 When Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You spirit that keeps this boy from speaking and hearing, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again!” 26 After crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he was able to stand. 28 When he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?” 29 He said to them, “This kind can come out only through prayer.
32 They went to a place called Gethsemane; and he said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took with him Peter and James and John[1], and began to be distressed and agitated. 34 And he said to them, “I am deeply grieved, even to death; remain here, and keep awake.” 35 And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground[4] and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 He said, “Abba,[h] Father[5], for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me;[6] yet, not what I want, but what you want.[7]” 37 He came and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep awake one hour? 38 Keep awake and pray that you may not come into the time of trial; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 39 And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. 40 And once more he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy; and they did not know what to say to him. 41 He came a third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? Enough! The hour has come; the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 Get up, let us be going. See, my betrayer is at hand.” 43 Immediately, while he was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, arrived; and with him there was a crowd[2] with swords and clubs, from the chief priests, the scribes,[3] and the elders.
[1] Jesus is with Peter James and John.
[2] A crowd.
[3] Priests, Scribes and Elders, oh my.
[4]Throw down.
[5]Asks the father.
[6]Request to remove the underlying driving spirit.
[7]Interesting as the only point of the rest of the prayer is to exorcise the Passion from Jesus. Also has no parallel to the outsides of the sandwich. Evidence of addition here and in big picture more evidence that original intent of GMark was to show Jesus (not Christ) as failure.



To be continued.


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Going to the John

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:33 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr9xVmCL0bA

JW:
I've Threaded before about the evidence for "Mark's" John baptizing Jesus story being fiction and actually introduced criteria into the decision in order to try and measure the extent of the evidence. Skeptics and believers alike generally use conclusions and sources that either lack credibility or have questionable credibility, mainly because of the lack of quality evidence either way, to support their related conclusions. Thus any absolute type conclusion will be weakly supported by the evidence. The best you can do is make relative type conclusions. Super Skeptic Dr. Richard Carrier typically does this in his arguments.

For the specific issue of this post:

What is the evidence that "Mark's" related story is evidence that John the Baptist baptized Jesus?

Verses

What is the evidence that "Mark's" related story is not evidence that John the Baptist baptized Jesus?

The key to evidence is SOURCE. The who. The individual criteria for quality source are:
  • 1) Reputation - Ability

    2) Reputation - Objectivity

    3) Location - Distance

    4) Location - Access
Now let's compare these criteria for Josephus and "Mark" giving a rating of High, Medium or Low:

Criteria Josephus "Mark"
Reputation - Ability Josephus is generally regarded as highly competent and a primary source for history in the time period he writes about.
High
I consider "Mark" to be a top literary author of his time with an ability that very few of the time would have possessed. However, we do not know who "Mark" was and therefore it is unclear how much of GMark was his original creation. Therefore:
Medium
Reputation - Objectivity Josephus is generally considered to be relatively objective for the time period but was writing for a Roman audience and was very sympathetic to his Judaism.
Medium
"Mark" has an extremely contrived and ironic literary style.
Low
Location - Distance Per Josephus' writings he would have been in Israel at the same supposed time of John/Jesus but presumably would not have been close to where John was baptizing.
Medium
"Mark" looks to have written after Josephus and it's unclear if "Mark" was ever in Israel.
Low
Location - Access It seems unlikely that Josephus would have had access to John or his followers but Josephus was a high level Jew of the time which would improve his general access.
Medium
No evidence that "Mark" had access to John or his followers (and no evidence he didn't).
Low

The table indicates that "Mark" is potentially relatively weak evidence in general for John the Baptist compared to Josephus. Of course what we are looking for here is more specific, what is the evidence that "Mark" is evidence that John baptized Jesus. Source is an exponentially better category of evidence than Literary Criticism (who said it verses what they said) but let's look at Literary Criticism evidence next.


Joseph

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