Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

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MrMacSon
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:38 am

It's analogous to L Ron Hubbard's proposals for Xenu and how intial followers of Scientology believe, and then how the next generation believe.

Stephan Huller
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by Stephan Huller » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:08 am

The question isn't whether the angel is "real" but eliminating possibilities down to "what happened" at the beginning of early Christianity. People like you and ghost and Mary all want to leave things so vague that "any number of possibilities" leaves open the door to a self-acknowledged fiction was venerated by the early Christians where all the evidence points in the opposite direction. Whether or not angels are "real" the evangelist claimed real human beings had an encounter with an anthropomorphic shaped being in a particular year of "real time." The original date of this encounter was 20 - 21 CE which was exactly 7 x 7 years before the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish religion. Because of the pre-existent Jewish interest in cycles of numbers of this sort (and probably by reverse inference) the story of this encounter was about why and how God wanted to end or ended the old Jewish religion. The "myth" was explanatory. There is nothing more to it. There was no Jesus = Caesar or Jesus = Antigonus, no shifting time travel, no crucifixion = something else. Whether or not you or I believe in angels the Jews of the age certainly did. Justin Martyr's beliefs about the angel who met the Patriarchs is the very same "Jewish angelology" of the historical evangelist and those who accepted the sanctity (historicity, ie the "reality" and "truth") of his narrative. There are no other plausible alternatives for "mythicism"

Charles Wilson
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by Charles Wilson » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:29 am

Stephan-

If you examine every use of the word "Angel" in the Gospels, can you assure that the reference in language is to the same "Type of Being"?
I believe that there is a usage for the word "Angel" that refers to something else - a child. The character "Peter" was that child and he saved a Priest. "Peter" comes back to Jerusalem 12 years later - with children - believing that another Conflagration will occur and that "these angels" will have a necessary role to play.

Matthew 10: 40 (RSV):

[40] "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me..."

Mark 9: 36 - 37 (RSV):

[36] And he took a child, and put him in the midst of them; and taking him in his arms, he said to them,
[37] "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me."

Luke 9: 47 - 48: (RSV)

[47] But when Jesus perceived the thought of their hearts, he took a child and put him by his side,
[48] and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me; for he who is least among you all is the one who is great."

John 13: 20 (RSV):

[20] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me."

This idea, Transvalued as it has been, speaks loud and clear.

Matthew 24: 31 (RSV):

[31] and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13: 27 (RSV):

[27] And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew's addition of the Trumpet Calls is a possible Military clue, that the Slaughter has been ended by the Generals, signaled with trumpets - see the end of Mark 6 for the results of this - but it is evidence that there is at least one instance where the word "Angel" does not signify a "Celestial Being". "Angel" means what it means to every parent when they look at their child.

Luke 9: 54 - 56 (RSV):

[54] And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, "Lord, do you want us to bid fire come down from heaven and consume them?"
[55] But he turned and rebuked them.
[56] And they went on to another village.

Children.

CW

Stephan Huller
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by Stephan Huller » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:35 am

Really? Angel = child. Do you have any familiarity with Hebrew? No. So please, if you can't provide an example to this effect in some ancient language please refrain from the "pass a bong around and asking your fellow tokers to 'consider' an idea that popped into your head under the influence of THC." Thank you

maryhelena
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by maryhelena » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:53 am

“God spreads the heavens above us like great wings
And gives a little round of deeds and days,
And then come the wrecked angels and set snares,
And bait them with light hopes and heavy dreams,
Until the heart is puffed with pride and goes
Half shuddering and half joyous from God's peace;
And it was some wrecked angel, blind with tears,
Who flattered Edane's heart with merry words.

Come, faeries, take me out of this dull house!
Let me have all the freedom I have lost;
Work when I will and idle when I will!
Faeries, come take me out of this dull world,
For I would ride with you upon the wind,
Run on the top of the dishevelled tide,
And dance upon the mountains like a flame.

W.B. Yeats, The Land of Heart's Desire
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

Stephan Huller
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by Stephan Huller » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:20 am

An appeal to modern romantics. But the ancients really believed in the existence of God and angels. They thought either could appear "right there" beside you. You see it in the Qumran War Scroll. The angels will fight alongside the Jews against the Romans. This wasn't romanticism. It was masculine. It was about the proven reality of God because he walked and talked on the earth only a few year ago. Again this wasn't romantic fiction, it was "fact."

ghost
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by ghost » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:00 am

How did the Jewish angel end up on the cross?

Stephan Huller
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by Stephan Huller » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:04 am

Finally a good question. My guess the substitution myth.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by Charles Wilson » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:07 am

Stephan Huller wrote:...the ancients really believed in the existence of God and angels. They thought either could appear "right there" beside you. The angels will fight alongside the Jews against the Romans.
Then why do you not believe it? You write the words but you make a mockery of what you write.

Leviticus 26: 1 - 13 (RSV):

[1] "You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the LORD your God.
[2] You shall keep my sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
[3] "If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them,
[4] then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
[5] And your threshing shall last to the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last to the time for sowing; and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land securely.
[6] And I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid; and I will remove evil beasts from the land, and the sword shall not go through your land.
[7] And you shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
[8] Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand; and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
[9] And I will have regard for you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and will confirm my covenant with you.
[10] And you shall eat old store long kept, and you shall clear out the old to make way for the new.
[11] And I will make my abode among you, and my soul shall not abhor you.
[12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and you shall be my people.
[13] I am the LORD your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves; and I have broken the bars of your yoke and made you walk erect.

From the "Golden Eagle Episode" on, Josephus follows this outline to its bitter conclusion. Midrash? Latin rewrite of a Jewish Story into Greek? It's not Romanticism. You simply refuse to examine it. You write the words but you do not believe that some Group of Jews might have acted on it. You simply cannot see it.

CW

steve43
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Re: Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias

Post by steve43 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:20 am

Josephus believed that God actually LIVED- existed might be a better word- in the inner sanctuary temple. All Jews did.

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