Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Blood
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Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Post by Blood »

Why is Jesus never referred to as "the Son of the Kurios" in the New Testament? He is always "son of Theos," even though Kurios is used many times. Yet reading modern exegesis you are led to assume that "Kurios" is synonymous with "Theos" and of course both these terms designate YHWH.

Is YHWH = Kurios and El-Elyon = Theos in early Christian thinking?

Mark 5

When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God's name don't torture me!" For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

Jesus is explicitly proclaimed the son of El-Elyon, not the son of the Kurios, in Mark 5.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
Stephan Huller
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Re: Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Post by Stephan Huller »

Good question. Philo's division of powers is probably the answer
Adam
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Re: Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Post by Adam »

You know how the Jehovah's Witnesses make so much of Jesus not being God the Son nor the Son of God? (I got into this because my sister became a JW and still is.) My study led to thinking just the opposite, that the Bible identifies Jesus as Yahweh (not as the son of Yahweh). That Blood has pointed out the Jesus is never called "the son of the Lord" necessarily would follow if it would be ridiculous to have Jesus say, "I am the Son of Jesus (myself)". The "Lord" would need to be different than "God". Also fitting would be "the Lord, the son of God", that is, "Jesus the Lord, the Son of God".
The Crow
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Re: Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Post by The Crow »

Where do y'all come up with this stuff? I never knew the jesus figure had so many fathers.
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Blood
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Re: Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Post by Blood »

I'm too lazy to look it up, but it would be good to know when the LXX refers to "Theos," when it refers to "Hypsistos," when it refers to "Kurios," etc. Did the Christians really think these were different gods? That may be a logical inference of changing names. There was no Wellhausen to explain to them these were different names for the same god.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
Clive
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Re: Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Post by Clive »

Paul's use of Lord Jesus Christ and its variants, Christ Jesus etc should also be looked at in detail. My impression is that translators are making theological assumptions all the time here - like Yahweh's son, but I agree Yahweh being Jesus is a probable translation.
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Clive
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Re: Jesus not the Son of the Kurios

Post by Clive »

Is there a general assumption amongst translators that Paul and the gospels are talking about the same person? Are they? How many Jesi might there be and who are they described as and related to how?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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