The Word According To Garp. Big Editing in the First Gospel

[JoeWallack]

The Word According To Garp, Mork, Mark. An Inventory of Significant Editing in the First Gospel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD0KSjHNEN4

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JW:
The purpose of this thread is to inventory significant editing in the first gospel, GMark. Apologists commonly argue that editing of the Christian Bible is relatively minor in significance. From the best known Internet Apologist, JP Holding:

Is any matter of the Christian faith affected by any variant reading?

Is any matter of the Christian faith affected by any variant reading?

This is the most important issue for the average believer, and the good news is this: No doctrine of Christianity is in the least dependent on ANY textual variant.

This thread will demonstrate that JP Holding is wrong. Editing of GMark not only affects "doctrine of Christianity" it affects some of the most important doctrines.

Significant Variant #1:

My favorite significant variant and one that Christianity traditionally fails to identify is that GMatthew and GLuke are themselves primarily editing of GMark. In my now famous Mark's View Of The Disciples Thread I demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that "Mark's" (author) primary purpose was to discredit "The Disciples" as witnesses to "Mark's" Jesus. "Matthew" and "Luke" (authors) edited "Mark" to rehabilitate "The Disciples" as the witnesses to their Jesus.

I know that some Skeptics think that my saying that GMatthew and GLuke are evidence of significant editing in GMark is technically not correct and they have a point. But in the context of a discussion of significant editing of GMark I think that not pointing out that GMatthew and GLuke are actually mostly an editing of GMark with the nefarious purpose of trying to rehabilitate and convert "Mark's" supposed witnesses of his Jesus into credible witnesses is as misleading as saying that white Jewish officials must have murdered an unarmed Christian in Messiurhi because all white Jews are prejudiced against all Christians armed with the holy spirit.


Joseph

EDITOR, n.
A person who combines the judicial functions of Minos, Rhadamanthus and Aeacus, but is placable with an obolus; a severely virtuous censor, but so charitable withal that he tolerates the virtues of others and the vices of himself; who flings about him the splintering lightning and sturdy thunders of admonition till he resembles a bunch of firecrackers petulantly uttering his mind at the tail of a dog; then straightway murmurs a mild, melodious lay, soft as the cooing of a donkey intoning its prayer to the evening star. Master of mysteries and lord of law, high-pinnacled upon the throne of thought, his face suffused with the dim splendors of the Transfiguration, his legs intertwisted and his tongue a-cheek, the editor spills his will along the paper and cuts it off in lengths to suit. And at intervals from behind the veil of the temple is heard the voice of the foreman demanding three inches of wit and six lines of religious meditation, or bidding him turn off the wisdom and whack up some pathos.


ErrancyWiki

[JoeWallack]

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
This is relatively breaking news and has not got the attention it deserves:

Short Note: 059 (0215) and Mark 15:28 Dirk Jongkind St Edmund’s College and Tyndale House, Cambridge

6) Since both the lower margin of the first fragment and the upper margin of the second are
preserved, it follows that we have the uninterrupted text from 15:26 (flesh side of G 36112) to
15:33 (last visible line of the hair side of G 39779), with only the beginning and end of individual
lines missing. It appears that our manuscript lacks Mark 15:28, a fact neatly disguised by the
folio break which happens at the transition from 15:27 to 15:29. There is good reason to believe
that this omission is inherited rather than instigated by the distraction of the break as 059 is
in respectable company for this omission: NA27 lists א A B C D Ψ 2427pck syssa bopt (NA28does not present additional testimony but wisely omits the 19th century forgery 2427, so-called‘Archaic Mark’13), while Legg adds X Ytxt27 71* 127* 157 471 474 476 476** 692l 48l184 and al.mu. codd. et lectionar.14 Since 059 is among the oldest witnesses that we have for this section of Mark, its omission from the witness list of our modern editions needs rectification.

The offending verse:

Mark 15:28

[And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was reckoned with transgressors.] (ASV)

Here we have a common Textual Criticism issue with the quality evidence supporting omission and the quantity evidence supporting inclusion.

• Laparola here:
  
  http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php
  
  Wieland Willker here:
  
  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/TC-Mark.pdf
  

  TVU 341 NA28 Mark 15:28

Basically the brave and truthful NA verses the evil and wicked Byzantine.

A brief survey of popular translations:

Mark 15:28 Bible Gateway

• Mark 15:28 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
  
  28 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, “And He was numbered with the transgressors.”

• Mark 15:28 American Standard Version (ASV)
  
  28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was reckoned with transgressors.

• Mark 15:28New American Standard Bible (NASB)
  
  28 [[a]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.”]
  Footnotes:
  
  Mark 15:28 Early mss do not contain this v

• Mark 15:28New International Version (NIV)
  
  [28] [a]
  Footnotes:
  
  Mark 15:28 Some manuscripts include here words similar to Luke 22:37.

• 'Mark 15:28' not found for the version: New Revised Standard Version.

In summary, of the 5 translations here, 2 do not have the verse and 1 indicates that early manuscripts do not have it. Thus it avoids inventory as Transmission error at ErrancyWiki.

What I find most interesting here though is what Literary Criticism might have to say regarding the odds that "Mark" (author) would have written such a line. I've found in my studies that CBS (Christian Bible Scholarship) is more likely to consider Literary Criticism when trying to argue against error than it is when arguing for error. Note that "Mark" normally presents supposed prophecy fulfillment via narrative and during Jesus' career usually has his Jesus give it. 15:28 though is an explicit editorial comment of prophecy fulfillment. This is the type (so to speak) of thing that the editing Gospellers "Matthew" and "Luke" are inclined towards. This supports a motivation of assimilation to the other Gospels.


Joseph

ErrancyWiki

[neilgodfrey]

Note that "Mark" normally presents supposed prophecy fulfillment via narrative and during Jesus' career usually has his Jesus give it. 15:28 though is an explicit editorial comment of prophecy fulfillment. This is the type (so to speak) of thing that the editing Gospellers "Matthew" and "Luke" are inclined towards. This supports a motivation of assimilation to the other Gospels.

Exactly. Moreover, Mark's narrative generally alludes to OT passages without any explicit notice at all. As you say, it is Matthew who gives us the heavy handed "This was done to fulfill such and such a scripture." I have often been prevented from expressing a certain analysis of Mark because this one verse contradicts everything else about the way Mark weaves OT scriptures into his narrative.

[Solo]

In summary, of the 5 translations here, 2 do not have the verse and 1 indicates that early manuscripts do not have it. Thus it avoids inventory as Transmission error at ErrancyWiki.

What I find most interesting here though is what Literary Criticism might have to say regarding the odds that "Mark" (author) would have written such a line. I've found in my studies that CBS (Christian Bible Scholarship) is more likely to consider Literary Criticism when trying to argue against error than it is when arguing for error. Note that "Mark" normally presents supposed prophecy fulfillment via narrative and during Jesus' career usually has his Jesus give it. 15:28 though is an explicit editorial comment of prophecy fulfillment. This is the type (so to speak) of thing that the editing Gospellers "Matthew" and "Luke" are inclined towards. This supports a motivation of assimilation to the other Gospels.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

I agree with this although the intent is unclear. Luke may have made the addition from a note on the margin linking the Isaiah 53:12 "fulfilment" to the figure of the two "robbers". You of course are an educated man and know that the "transgressors" were not really "robbers" but like Jesus, those "without law" (hoi anomoi). Since you like myself have been visited by the spirit which told us that Mark was interpreting Paul for his allegorical figures, the outing of his purpose to hang Paul as one of the robbers alongside Jesus, would not likely have originated with him. After all he was telling a mystery.

The verse of Paul that Mark uses for 15:27 ? See if you can find it ! Should be a cinch

Best,
Jiri

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Thanks Joe.

[JoeWallack]

The verse of Paul that Mark uses for 15:27 ? See if you can find it ! Should be a cinch

Best,
Jiri

JW:
Mark 15:27

And with him they crucify two robbers; one on his right hand, and one on his left. (ASV)

All too Easy

For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.

For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

KK (Kunigunde Kreuzerin), do you have any of your articles in English?


Josef

ErrancyWiki

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

No and because of my poor English there never will be one.

[JoeWallack]

No and because of my poor English there never will be one.

JW:
I tell you the truth, there are some standing here today who would say your English is better than "Mark's" Greek.


Josef

"If England, on top, has always been the brain of Europe, calm and sensible and France to the South is the naughty bits, than Germany in the middle is the heart of Europe, emotional and easily swayed."

[Solo]

The verse of Paul that Mark uses for 15:27 ? See if you can find it ! Should be a cinch

Best,
Jiri

JW:
Mark 15:27

And with him they crucify two robbers; one on his right hand, and one on his left. (ASV)

All too Easy

For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.

For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

Josef

ErrancyWiki

Of course, the idea that Paul was crucified with Christ is a part of the mystery. But I was after the verse that identifies Paul as a "robber".

It was a trick question

Here is is :

1 Cor 9:21 To those outside the law I became as if outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law. (τοῖς ἀνόμοις ὡς ἄνομος μὴ ὢν ἄνομος θεοῦ ἀλλ’ ἔννομος Χριστοῦ ἵνα κερδάνω τοὺς ἀνόμους)

Mark really was very clever in hinting at the false link of Jesus' to the crime of robbery (let the reader understand : Mark means Paul's Jesus !):

Mk 14:48 And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to capture me, as if I was a robber ?
( καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὡς ἐπὶ λῃστὴν ἐξήλθατε μετὰ μαχαιρῶν καὶ ξύλων συλλαβεῖν με )



Best,
Jiri

[MrMacSon]

For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

It would be interesting to know if this was initially written with reference to a 'christ' other than Jesus the christ of Nazareth

ie. as part of general gnosticism away from the synoptic gospels; before the synoptics were written, or before the synoptics were redacted with the Pauline texts, if that indeed did happen.